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  • » Religion - Room 1
  • » Is religion real? by americaneag


  • Is religion a true thing (and in this case, which religion is the right one, among christianity, buddhism, hindouism, islam, judaism... ?) or was it an invention of men? A pure creation in order to enslave the people.

    I agree with Bill Maher : I believe in God but religion is ball crap. All so called "prophets" are either liars or never existed.

    Edit

#21 2012-10-30 01:06:49

          United States    calibur
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

You can't prove that unicorns don't exist. Therefore unicorns exist by your logic.
You still say nothing of those 'miracles' you mentioned. I suppose this means you give up that argument?

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#22 2012-10-29 13:10:39

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@SgtPeppers 

But how much of the universe do you really know, you cannot prove that God does not exist.  Therefore atheism is incomplete.  ( This argument might sound like an "appeal to ignorance" statement but it is not meant to be )

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#23 2012-10-29 07:24:20

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

You don't seem to understand
1. There is no atheist agenda for how we want the universe to work, the atheistic world views (which are far more varied than within religions) are based on the way the universe actually is. There is no evidence for purpose and their is no evidence for gods, ergo atheists don't believe in them
2. The universe as we know it IS in line with this worldview

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#24 2012-10-29 01:45:57

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@SgtPeppers 

Well, the "universe" does not have to be in line with the atheist agenda either.  Now, on miracles...

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#25 2012-10-29 00:32:24

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

Then that is your delusio...I mean opinion, however it does not change the facts, there is no indication that anything does have a purpose, however clearly something can exist independent of purpose, that is a self evident truth and the universe isn't required to be in line with your expectations.

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#26 2012-10-24 00:08:54

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@SgtPeppers 

Then why should things exist and not, what is the purpose, to reproduce and die?  I think life is more than that, it is having the fruits of living, a chance to be and then to not.

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#27 2012-10-24 00:05:25

          Russia    NikoLStak
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Re: Is religion real?




@SgtPeppers 

Life is not less useless from this perspective of I'm born, now i'm dead and it's over. We only exist to simply disappear later, and this for absolutely nothing than making a universe progressing towards it's own end. It does not make sense.
I don't care, I'll be dead if your right, or a floating ghost if I am right. But being born can't be that useless. It could have no reason, but then it would simply not exist since no plausible theory about it's creation has been given. God or Big Bang, both tell us that something always exsited(Magic) or that something appeared out of innexistence(Magic). From this, I must consider that universe's existence is magic and that everything is possible...

Talking about miracles... The universe is one. Big Bang being only a ridiculous theory. Nothing can happen if there was nothing to start it. If it simply have no start and always existed, then it's magic, and magic is god(Or maybe Harry Potter is the good religion).
Talking about magic... We don't know a shit about all this. Maybe that ghost we see in these retard TV show about ghost hunters are not such stupid and could be scientifically explainable and have nothing to do with religion...
But now we are turning toward Live after death debate which could be a religious afterdeath or scientifically reasonnable afterdeath.

Last edited by NikoLStak (2012-10-24 00:12:34)

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#28 2012-10-23 19:13:01

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

1. No, the currently proposed deities CANNOT coexist with science, as their various actions and attributes are antithetical to our current knowledge of how the world works

2. I don't need to explain miracles, you need to prove them to exist (they don't)

3. Also on miracles, I subscribe to the perspective of David Hume, basically, a miracle MUST by definition entail a suspension of physical laws (i.e. the laws of physics, biology, etc) and this creates a problem. It means that a miracle is BY DEFINITION the least likely explanation, as every single natural explanation is more likely. Therefore, the odds of something being a hoax, or a delusion or a result of a previously unknown but natural phenomena any number of other things are almost infinitely more likely than it being miraculous

4. On meaning of life, I would first inquire: why does life needs a meaning? I am what I refer to as a functioning nihilist. I don't believe life has purpose or intrinsic meaning and I believe that all the cumulative efforts of our species are in the end, futile. This is not a completely meaningless worldview however. Life has whatever meaning we assign to it, this meaning may be illusory, but that doesn't degrade it. We are able to live our lives as we choose, assigning whatever value we may wish to it. This IS not hedonistic in nature, as hedonism as an ideology denies humans as having more than base instinct to satisfy. It isn't about "this is all meaningless so I'm just going to fuck any girl I want to and act however I want" in fact I would argue that that position is exactly as amoral (and exactly as far from the truth) as "everything has intrinsic meaning so I am going to act like a Saint so I can get into heaven". For once, my position is the centrist position, you don't need real meaning, you can get out of life whatever you wish and find joy wherever you wish and this is how most people operate. Some find joy with their families or their friends, some find their joy getting to drunk too stand on a Wednesday night before a midterm, some do it pursuing every girl they get in their sights and some (I personally place myself with this group) get it from intellectualism, the study of ideas, reading and debating and that slight buzz at the back of your mind when you realize "I can make him regret making that point" and proceed to write half a page in 3 minutes trying to do just that. It might all be illusory and without purpose, but it is like Cypher from the matrix, sometimes the illusory meaning is to the realistic lack of it, sometimes, you just want to forget it all and get plugged back in.

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#29 2012-10-22 16:36:25

          Russia    NikoLStak
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

You got a good point here. If live was only a period in which your heart and brain work, then live is a much bigger ballshit than religion.
I never believed in a god because I never received any viable evidence. But it is much more credible than a nowhere World War between Matter and Anti-Matter and than a live that only happen to make us appreciate it's existence(Wtf? If you give me a plane ticket for Cuba and take it back, I would have prefered to never have it).

Last edited by NikoLStak (2012-10-22 16:37:02)

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#30 2012-10-22 00:40:48

          United States    calibur
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Re: Is religion real?




You still refuse to answer my question, to what miracles are you referring?

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#31 2012-10-22 00:14:52

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@SgtPeppers 

Explain miracles then, how and why.  Also would not atheists never find a meaning for life.

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#32 2012-10-22 00:12:32

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@SgtPeppers 

News flash, science and God can exist in harmony.

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#33 2012-10-21 08:55:52

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

That is a bizarre analysis. I think it quite reasonable to say (without presuming to speak for every atheist) that by his analysis, atheists have far more to live for than theists do, because we only have one shot. The theists might talk about facing their own mortality, but they always use the promise of heaven to mitigate the feeling of impending demise. For an atheist it is markedly different, there the battle is both accepting the inevitable, while also trying to delay it as long as possible, because as much as we realize that our lives are finite and in the long run, without a huge degree of meaning, we can still strive for more. That is the difference between the two. The theist limits themselves to contentment while awaiting better, while the atheist tries to make the way things are better for the moment. As a philosophy, atheism is far less restrictive. We think far more of life than anyone who hopes for an afterlife, because for them, life is a short burst of monotony preceding bliss, whereas for us, that burst is literally all we have


I might have posted part of this before, but I think it highly relevant to my point (especially the bolded bits):


"But when Socrates was sentenced to death, for his philosophical investigations and for blasphemy, for challenging the gods of the city, and he accepted his death he did say, "Well, if we are lucky perhaps I will be able to hold conversation with other great thinkers and philosophers and doubters, too." In other words, that the discussion about what is good, what is beautiful, what is noble, what is pure, and what is true could always go on. Why is that important? Why would I like to do that? Because that's the only conversation worth having. And whether it goes on or not after I die, I don't know. But, I do know that it is the conversation I want to have while I am still alive. Which means that to me the offer of certainty, the offer of complete security, the offer of an impermeable faith that can't give way, is an offer of something not worth having. I want to live my life taking the risk all the time that I don't know anything like enough yet… that I haven't understood enough… that I can't know enough… that I am always hungrily operating on the margins of a potentially great harvest of future knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn't have it any other way. And I'd urge you to look at those who tell you, those people who tell you at your age, that you are dead until you believe as they do. What a terrible thing to be telling to children. …and that you can only live by accepting an absolute authority. Don't think of that as a gift. Think of it as a poisoned chalice. Push it aside however tempting it is. Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way." - Christopher Hitchens (not long after a diagnosis of terminal cancer)

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#34 2012-10-21 08:41:05

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

"Perhaps science can discover God"

2 major problems here

1. God is, by definition, supernatural and thus by definition cannot be discovered by science, since science uses methodological naturalism to achieve its goals

2. Although the idea of discovering a god of some description is technically possible (as is the idea of discovering an intergalactic unicorn named Charlie), it cannot be any of the gods currently proposed by humans, because to a one, those gods and the claims made about them have been systemically disproven, as virtually every time any testable claim about these deities is made, it flies directly in the face of reality, an interventionist deity simply is not within the realm of the reasonable

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#35 2012-10-13 21:52:38

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@Yarin428 

I think your statement says that atheists will not survive, because they have nothing to care for and so no real reason for morality.  They might think less of life.

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#36 2012-10-13 21:33:17

          United States    calibur
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Re: Is religion real?




@Yarin428 

In a certain sense, those are miracles. They are not, however, unexplainable by science: that's what maps was referring to, or his point was invalidated automatically.

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#37 2012-10-13 21:33:01

               Yarin428
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Re: Is religion real?




one way that universe may started:
1.former universe collapsed by super black hole(theoretically possible,but i also quite doubt it,if it happend,it will happen to our universe eventully).
2.there was nothing,but there was something:matter+anti matter in same amount=no matter,vaccum,and the "strings" of the universe were there.
3.in time "0",the mater and the anti-matter were serpted.
4.so far,the anti-matter surrounds us in the space,and the matter is known(there also plasma which is 99% of the stars).
i know,it's doubtable,but its the best solution i found(with some internet research and my theories).
one more point for science!

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#38 2012-10-13 21:08:48

               Yarin428
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Re: Is religion real?




@calibur 

there are modern miricals-but they limited and sciencifics.
with science today,you may return a deaf person his hearing,make man without legs walk again,and resurrect people from death-if they died a minute before you ressurect them.
i

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#39 2012-10-13 21:05:13

               Yarin428
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

there a flaw in what you say.
theists and atheists will try to survive,but there will be another think ways:
atheists-i wont gonna die,i gonna do everything i will be able to,because there is no second chance(if he really want survive).
theists- i will do what i can,but its okay to fail in this,i will live in heaven if not.
as you can see,the atheist have nothing to depend if he dies,so he have 100% of motivation
the theists have the feeling that if they die they will go to heaven,this will give them 50-100% of motivation.
as you may see,the atheists will survive more then theists,because thier willpower.

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#40 2012-09-24 05:08:54

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: Is religion real?




@calibur 

Not always people deluding themselves, I don't think so. Some things are still unexplainable, or at least not clear yet. For example the creation of the universe; we're not sure about it the way we're sure of how rain occurs. I think the belief that God created everything is the same as the old belief that God/gods created thunder etc. Look at it this way:

Before we knew how lightning was created, we thought God just made it. Poof. Just like that. Now we know that thunder happens without God, that "thunder must begin with a shock wave in the air due to the sudden thermal expansion of the plasma in the lightning channel" and all of that. We find out that God had nothing to do with it.

I think the same is with the universe; that we're still at the "God just made it. Poof." part. Maybe we'll find out how the creation of the universe happens, and like thunder, we'll find out that God doesn't need to exist for us to exist. Or we'll discover God with science. That's possible, but very unlikely.

Last edited by Hephaestus (2012-09-24 12:52:30)

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