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  • » Religion - Room 1
  • » Is religion real? by americaneag


  • Is religion a true thing (and in this case, which religion is the right one, among christianity, buddhism, hindouism, islam, judaism... ?) or was it an invention of men? A pure creation in order to enslave the people.

    I agree with Bill Maher : I believe in God but religion is ball crap. All so called "prophets" are either liars or never existed.

    Edit

#41 2012-09-22 04:11:52

          United States    calibur
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Re: Is religion real?




What I meant was that there are no modern miracles. Nearly all modern 'miracles' are either explainable, or merely people deluding themselves. Back then, it was a true lack of knowledge. How would they explain lightning with no subatomic particle theory, but as the (insert emotion here) of god(s)?

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#42 2012-09-21 14:18:53

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

I don't think I'm evading your questions since you're not making any; your last statement was a "perhaps", a pondering, not a question. But let's leave that at that and move on.

1. "God wished to give life" for what? He had absolutely no reason to. Creating life was something he apparently wanted to do, not something he had a reason to do. But God never does something without a reason, does he? You must find an explanation proving that we must exist. Not just because God wanted us to exist.

2. That statement was mine- I clearly stated that before. My statement is the opposite of yours; so you must make a rebuttal, or agree with me.

3. Oh yes I am proof. According to you, without God we'd be in ruins, no? Also, someone without God will be ruined. Guess what? I'm not ruined. Numerous other atheists in the world are are successful people. Why is that? Why did God give atheists, corrupt atheists, success, wealth and happiness, and have many theists poor and broke?

4. "Miracles are inexpiable because God made it so," We have successfully explained a lot of miracles. "perhaps with science we shall discover God." This, I can't disagree with.

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#43 2012-09-19 19:41:23

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@Hephaestus 

And you sir have not directly answered my questions either but never mind that let me answer you! 

1.  I already told you in my last post about this
2. Please rephrase, was not I the person who said that your who your parents were does not matter, and that they are just guiding you?
3.  You are not proof dear sir, because you are only one individual.  Imagine if scientists said to a world of Atheists that a volcano would destroy the Earth, the Atheists would have no hope in attempting to survive because they do not believe in God.
4. As I have said before, perhaps with science we will discover God and so God and science can coexist.

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#44 2012-09-19 16:29:26

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

Again, you're trying to evade directly answering my questions. Perhaps I should list the ones you haven't responded to:

1. Atheism (which according to you, doesn't make sense) may not be able to provide an answer as to why we're here, but neither does the existence of God. So religion doesn't make sense as well?

2. Blood does not matter- the environment does. This statement contradicts yours; so please state whether you agree or not.

3. The world'd be ruined because there is no hope in God- I am proof that says you're wrong, and I have explained why. What is your rebuttal?

4. "Miracles" or things we can't explain might as well be things we can't explain yet, and things that can't be explained thus could not be proof of God's existence. This contradicts your statement- state whether you agree or not.

There, that seems about it- it makes things somewhat clearer. You should place your responses based on those numbers- it worked in keeping multiple arguments alive back in the another debate between Calibur and Sismetic, I think he remembers. Since you tend to answer to only one of many arguments I set up, this should fix it.

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#45 2012-09-19 12:54:48

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@Hephaestus 

But perhaps God wished to give life to one who had none, to create a world with humans, but maybe to make life you must put the good and the bad together, to have no pains is to have no gains, but in the end, at one point we will all reach heaven.

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#46 2012-09-19 09:05:11

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

I did say that.

 

 Indeed. The first time I realized that, my first thought was "then what's the point of all this? Are we all just another little streak happening in the history of shit that happens for no readily apparent reason?" 

 

That was the first thing that came to my head. Wait a minute. Hmm. You know, I've just realized something, a sort of paradox that makes God even more confusing. Here it is:

1. God does not need us to exist.
2. God never does something without a reason.

If those two were true, God wouldn't need to create anything in the first place. You think that without God, there'd be no reason for us to be here? Guess what: even if God did exist, there would still be no reason for us to be here! What, are we his toys or something? His little playthings? He manipulates our life and throw us in heaven and hell for fun? Is that it? Apparently God created us for no reason!

Also, miracles? Unexplainable? So you can't explain miracles. Other than fire, you know what else were unexplainable sorcery back then? Rain. Earthquakes. Volcanoes. Snow. Thunder. Tornadoes. Mountains. Seas. Forests. Deserts. No one ever knew how they just happened to be there. So, naturally they decide that some great omnipotent entity has created them. These "miracles"- how do you know that you're not doing the same thing? Also, for Calibur- why? People deluding themselves is what the early humans did, no? They didn't understand how things got to be that way, so they just jump to the conclusion that God/gods exist.

Just one more thing. Note that I'm making full-length arguments for every few sentences you toss back at me. Please provide more solid, concrete rebuttals. Thank you.

Last edited by Hephaestus (2012-09-19 09:06:47)

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#47 2012-09-18 23:18:31

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@Hephaestus 

Atheism is clearly illogical because it provides no reason why there should be life, no Atheist can deny this!  Miracles are inexpiable because God made it so, perhaps with science we shall discover God.

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#48 2012-09-18 21:53:24

          United States    calibur
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Re: Is religion real?




I, too am proof that to be godless is not to be hopeless. I, too excel in these three feilds. Yes, everything Haephestus said is true. However, I think that his statement on miracles is not applicable to modern religious miracles: that is merely people deluding themselves.

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#49 2012-09-18 17:17:03

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

Yes, blood does not matter. You got that right; to be precise it is the environment is the one which shapes every human being. That includes parents. Blood, as in genes, only shapes your appearance. What you're going to be in this world are shaped by your environment. That is not true? Tell me how that doesn't make sense.

Oh, children can choose their ways? If that were true, I'd just announce to everyone in my life that I was an atheist since 13. You think my life'll just go on as usual? I'll become an outcast, in every way. I'll have no friends, no job, no future. Is that my freedom to choose?

Also, the part about how the world'd be if children will have no hope because there is no God: I'm living proof that defies your statement. Educationally I'm not failing; I was accepted in the 3rd ranking middle school of Jakarta. Socially as well; I have plenty of friends. Mentally too; as you can see, I am mature enough to be a competent debater, perhaps better than some adults. You wanted to see a child with no hope because he can see no God? Here I am.

Also by the way, you didn't seem to reply to my previous last paragraph- the one about miracles. Please respond to that. Thanks.

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#50 2012-09-18 13:13:39

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@Hephaestus 

So you are saying blood relation does not matter?  That parents shape their children?  Well sir that is not true at all!  Children can choose their ways, the parents just "help" them morally by helping make them religious. But it is also the parents responsibility to tell of the other faiths and of their "corruptions" to keep the child to their faith.  If we had no parents doing this, think of how bad the World would be now, with child with no hope because he can see no God. 

Could not Atheists say the same to children!

Last edited by maps12 (2012-09-18 13:18:28)

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#51 2012-09-18 09:28:18

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

Indeed. A more accurate way to say would be perhaps, people influencing other people's beliefs, which in turn leads to the other people developing their own sense of hope based almost fully on the one who told them about the beliefs. That's easier to explain with an example, a very common and observable one.

Say there are a couple going to have kids. Both of them are Muslim (I'm going with Muslim here because it's the religion I understand most). They, of course, will make their child a Muslim as well. Since a very early age they taught their child how to pray 5 times a day, they teach their child to read the Qur'an, they feed their child their Islamic views on recent events to strengthen their child's belief.

As a result, of course, the child is an obedient Muslim, who has absolutely no doubts about his religion. Why? Of course, because it's all their parents ever taught them. The average parent doesn't teach their kid about all beliefs in the world including atheism, then ask them to choose one; they only teach their kids their views, because they want their child to be the best person in the world in their eyes. So in the end the child will probably listen to them, the child will trust them and believe what their parents believe. And they will pass it on to their children.

Makes sense, doesn't it? Doesn't this explain the unreasonably strong faith people have in their
God?

About the "miracles you mentioned- I think I should point this out. Back when we didn't have fire. When that smart (or lucky) one guy successfully sparked his piece of flint and steel and lit up a bonfire (I'm not saying this actually happened, no one knows how it happened), what was it? You know what it was? It was magic. It was motherfucking witchcraft, that red hot flickering thing coming out of the wood, eating it away. You know why? It was because no one understood it. So I'm just saying, whatever your "miracles" are, it could be things we'd be able to explain in the future.

Last edited by Hephaestus (2012-09-18 09:45:25)

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#52 2012-09-18 01:22:11

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@Hephaestus 

So you are saying people hypnotized themselves to feel peace?  You say it is all fake!  Then tell me, please, why should not God exist?

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#53 2012-09-18 00:02:27

          United States    calibur
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

WHAT MIRACLES?
And why didn't you reply to Hephaestus? is it because you don't have an answer?

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#54 2012-09-17 22:02:08

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@calibur 

Many "miracles" occur around the world each day, it can not be a coincidence.

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#55 2012-09-17 08:55:13

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

"Unexplainable" seems to mean to you as "can't be explained". When it comes to things we don't understand, I think the proper definition would be "can't be explained yet". There are many things we didn't know back then that we know now. You're not saying we won't learn more, are you?

Believe me, when I prayed back then I felt peaceful. I felt safe, I felt motivated. How do you know that it's not the human brain causing all of those emotions? I'll give you an example:

Say you are about to be shot because of a crime, or something like that. A death sentence. Then just before the shot, everyone starts laughing and tells you that the death sentence was just a joke to make you learn your lesson. Then, of course, you feel extremely relieved. Then, they shoot you. And you're dead. Turns out they wasn't kidding, and were just playing with your emotions.

Look at that. The enormous feeling of relief you felt when they said they weren't going to shoot you? How do you know that the promises of religion aren't just that? Your brain finding and strongly believing in false hope because someone else told you that it was true?

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#56 2012-09-17 02:16:03

          United States    calibur
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Re: Is religion real?




@maps12 

What miracles? I've never heard of a modern man walking on water, or returning sight to the blind, or any such thing with anything other than science.
And that happens with atheistic meditation, just as well as it does with every religion's form of praying.

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#57 2012-09-17 01:36:26

          United States    maps12
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Re: Is religion real?




@calibur 

But there is much evidence of a higher power, how do you explain miracles?  What about when praying people feel peaceful?

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#58 2012-09-16 18:56:36

          United States    calibur
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Re: Is religion real?




@Hephaestus 

The only practical bonus to being an atheist is time. A formerly christian atheist might save a year of their life. A formerly muslim atheist may save several.
In addition, the idea that humans have been able to become masters of the Earth, able to travel to other planets without any outside assistance? That's a pretty cool consolation.

It's funny, lowercase christian is a word, but lowercase muslim is not, according to this system.

Is it really worth all the grief? I'd have to say no. But it's unavoidable. The whole world will, eventually, save proof of a deity, become atheist.

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#59 2012-09-16 18:34:13

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: Is religion real?




@calibur 

Indeed. The first time I realized that, my first thought was "then what's the point of all this? Are we all just another little streak happening in the history of shit that happens for no readily apparent reason?"

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. All of the people believing in God, praying that they'll go to this magical place called Heaven one day... Belief in God doesn't hurt them, does it? It gives them hope, it gives them motivation. Now I wonder if I made the right choice being all critical-minded; if I was just a good obedient ignorant kid, I wouldn't be so frustrated about my future right now, because there'd be a God to pray to.

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#60 2012-09-16 18:14:55

          United States    calibur
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Re: Is religion real?




I would like to add that, by admitting to yourself that god doesn't exist, you have to stop believing in... everything.
You have to start believing that the world is mundane, there is nothing that can defy science, illogical things cannot happen... It's horrible really. A horrible truth, for someone with so many delusions of mystical power as myself. I'd like to stop talking about it now.

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