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  • Index
  • » Politics - Room 1
  • » Socialism vs Capitalism by depresser
  •    Thread focusing on the pros and cons of both systems.

    I personally am a socialist, not a Communist, a socialist. Socialist countries have longer holidays, are more atheist, have a free health service and of course actually care for the poor. Rampant capitalist countries like the US shit all over their poor whilst some people are getting 8 figure paychecks.

    Edit

#1 2019-10-02 07:24:21

          United States    Ernest100
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




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#2 2014-10-13 13:49:41

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




  And Lenin was a true revolutionary 

 

I detest anyone who says a Marxist is a true revolutionary in the sense of he/she does good to the people.

Because history says no. paper@irishgenius 

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#3 2014-10-13 13:44:14

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@irishgenius 

 

 The Soviet Union between 1917-75 grew by 1300% 

 

 

 It was estimated that if the Bureaucracy were gotten rid of, then the process would have speeded up by ten times! 

 

There is problem in this statement too. This is an overall statistic, but how much of this economic result was given to its creators---the worker, the farmer, the scientist, the soldier, the tradesman........? hum2

Indeed, in the 1950's the Union was on an all-out currency war with the West (primarily the US), expanding in the Middle East, Africa and South America, which certainly means that less result of the WWII-boost is received by the Soviet people,
and in the 1970's Soviet famring had practically collapsed to the point in which it was forced to sell its gold reserves in exchange for food! It was already forced to undermine its roots for a stable economy! facepalm

How much does a 1300% account for in this situation?!

How much does a 13000% when it can be sloshed away like sludge?! nono

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#4 2014-10-13 13:29:08

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




There is a problem here in your statement. Economy cannot be planned in order to function smoothly. It could be influenced, tweaked even controlled but one thing an economy resists is any attempt to plan it as a whole tired

And in this debate there is one critical point: Marxism does NOT equal to socialism as a whole, and irishgenius, in order to pull debaters to the Socialist side you need to deploy the theories of other factions of socialism, which I don't know much about. So it's up to you. geek

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#5 2014-10-03 19:25:56

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@Archduke 
                       
The Soviet Union between 1917-75 grew by 1300%, while the American economy of 300% and the British 75% of the same period. This was inspite of civil war, some famines, a World War and the parasitic Bureaucracy. It was estimated that if the Bureaucracy were gotten rid of, then the process would have speeded up by ten times!. So I think the cake can get way bigger with a true workers planned economy. I will write another post on the Bureaucracy, as it will a long one. The Germans paid for his transport to Russia, not while he was in Russia. And Lenin was a true revolutionary, but i will deal with that in the Bureaucracy post. and When I said "sell it to", I meant the oil crisis and soviet products

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#6 2014-10-03 19:10:32

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@Archduke 
                       
I'm talking about before that, when the hunter gatherer society existed

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#7 2014-08-25 13:10:34

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@irishgenius 

 

  It had enough guys to sell it to. (And bourgeois Democracy isn't freedom)

 

It isn't exactly selling, I mean if you want someone to agree with you on a certain idea (like my mom believes I shouldn't come on to this site anymore), you have to show how your idea fits with the receiver's thinking system(morals, logic, dreams/goals) you can't just "buy someone into believing something".

The Soviet Union gave nations another chance, a chance to break free from the old system. The Union failed partly due to the critical error of not creating a flexible, prosperous and equal new system----the socialism of the 19th-century dreamers.

And on bourgeois democracy and freedom. I didn't say they were the same thing, but like China, Russia did not have a humanism period (and though some ideas spread during the czarist era they were rooted out during the revolutionary and Stalinist eras)and thus when freedom, equality and fraternity entered and the proletariat looked at himself well....and looks at the magnates well....and thinks of the Purges and well....

On topic, I think that the problem can only be solved by a third way (I know, shouldn't be not pro or con in a debate) but if I were to choose, capitalism. Because quotemark1 making a big cake comes before dividing it equally. quotemark2 and socialism overstresses the latter.

And please, in your next post, make clear what you are making a point to, as I have a bit of a problem trying to figure which of my posts you are replying to.

Finally, Lenin was funded (partly) by Germany to instate the October Rev. NOT socialist rev, that one, but certainly an "early Marxist" one, haha.

I know. Bad joke.

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#8 2014-08-25 12:38:06

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@irishgenius 

 

  It's not Full communism, Hence the word Primative
 

 

If a difference exists in social status(classes exist, in other words) it is against all communist theories(even Marxism, though as stated, in theory), hence it is not communism.

In times before slave societies, there was at the beginning matriarchal clans, then patriarchal clans, there never was "primitive communism".

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#9 2014-08-24 23:30:05

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@Archduke 
                       
Exactly. It had enough guys to sell it to. (And bourgeois Democracy isn't freedom)

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#10 2014-08-24 23:24:23

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@Archduke 
                       
It's not Full communism, Hence the word Primative

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#11 2014-08-20 04:40:03

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@irishgenius 

The USSR is regarded as the 3 modern superpowers (along with the US & UK) because it generated a sphere of influence in resistance to other spheres (West, Non-Aligned) and with a sphere of global influence (Iron Curtain, Angolan civil war, Outer Mongolia) its economy has to go global (Gold and Petroleum trade) so outside thoughts enter (democracy&freedom).

To be continued...

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#12 2014-08-20 04:33:20

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@irishgenius 

Even in "primitive communism" societies there was the difference between man and woman, and a difference in social status equals to class existence, no? hum2

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#13 2014-08-17 13:25:08

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@Archduke 
                       
But the fall of the USSR was more down to the system of government itself, although events do play a major role. Yes I believe economic Factors were at play, but this did not signal the end of The USSR. It could have lasted without oil profits if need be, being a very inward economy. But there it is, Profits. The Bureaucracy wanted to make profits, they were turning capitalist. In today's Russia the Bureaucracy are now the oligarchs. They dissolved the USSR because they wanted more money. And this is the underlining cause of its fall.

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#14 2014-08-17 13:07:21

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@Archduke 
                       
The class system was not inevitable. If you look at before the formation of States or their ilk, Society was what we call a primitive communist society. Classes didn't exist then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_communism
And what I meant by "It has happened in the past" is that people got used to the new system (Slave economy to feudalism, feudalism to capitalism etc.)

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#15 2014-08-17 11:06:48

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@irishgenius 

 

Maoism is Stalinism!

 

But Mao isn't Stalin.

And Stalin wasn't quoted half as often as Mao. Obama quoted Mao in his speeches while he ran for president. Bush even declared The records of Mao (Mao Zedong yulu) as the best selling book in all history, even beyond the Bible!

Why?

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#16 2014-08-17 11:01:08

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@irishgenius 

 

 Russia fell for many reasons. It was systematic. 

 

Well yes.

 

All Stalinist countries will inevitably Return to capitalism. The Bureaucracy will want more and more of the wealth the working class produce.

 

Well.... yeahno . Capitalism seeks profit and Stalinism seeks productivity. But a Stalinist bureaucracy will consume wealth of the working class with its avarice.

 

To answer your point on the Currency wars, that it was the nail in the coffin rather than the cause.

That may have been the lit match, but the floor was full of oil.

 

Well.... diagree . A nation that does not no their enemies might play with the valuation of their wealth....this factor is among the oil on the floor.

You could say that Yelstein was the match. NikoLStak and Lenin would almost certainly agree.

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#17 2014-08-17 10:51:20

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@irishgenius 

 

capitalism is not human nature

  lol2

Well said! So is  

a better system (Socialism)

! lol2

 

If we replace (capitalism) with a better system (Socialism) and wait a generation or two, people will change. It has happened in the past.

 

That has never happened. evil

   As I would put it, the A class humans (most resources, privileges) shifted always to the people who were the most influential and powerful, B class (toil away all their lives to scrap a living) shifted to people snagged in history's currents, and C class (outcasts, taboos) shift to the shift of the ruling system's justification. evil

P.S I think we're on the right track of discussion! lol

Last edited by Archduke (2014-08-17 10:52:52)

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#18 2014-08-15 21:18:29

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@Archduke 

Russia fell for many reasons. It was systematic. All Stalinist countries will inevitably Return to capitalism. The Bureaucracy will want more and more of the wealth the working class produce. As I said, you see this happening in China. To answer your point on the Currency wars, that it was the nail in the coffin rather than the cause. For example, you could say that WW1 was caused by The assassination of Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand. But it wasn't. That may have been the lit match, but the floor was full of oil. Europe would have went to war for another issue, because of the imperialist ambitions of the two camps (they pre-existed the War). It was systemic of later stage capitalism, a war of resources, territories, Influence.

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#19 2014-08-15 20:46:46

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@ChicagoER 

Maoism is Stalinism!. Maoism is just peasant led and "critical" of the bureaucracy. That's the only difference

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#20 2014-08-15 20:24:34

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism




@Archduke 
                       
It only the minority of people who on top of the system, and capitalism is not human nature. Same was said about The Slave economy, about Feudalism. People are only think "selfish" because we live in a selfish system where you need to be selfish to get to the top. If we replace it with a better system (Socialism) and wait a generation or two, people will change. It has happened in the past.

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