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  • » Society - Room 1
  • » Should abortion be legal? by Snow_Dog
  •    Pro life or pro choice?

    I am uncomfortable with the idea of abortion, but I firmly believe that it should be the woman in question's choice, and she should be able to get one in a safe place. No one is proud of it, but it's better than hoping for an adoption or chaining your life back because you have to care for a child.

    Edit

#21 2013-04-27 13:35:53

          United States    madd693
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@calibur 

 

 Animals get killed out of inconvenience- billions of bees, ants, and termites are genocidally exterminated every year. 

 

Genocide? Lol. I didn't know Bees and Ants qualify as an ethnic, political, national, or cultural group. Did you mean pesticide, maybe?

Of course we exterminate pests. Not limited to insects, either. Rodents are a big target. Coyotes. Deer. Basically any dangerous, destructive, or tasty animal is fair game to keep their population down to controllable levels. This is necessary. We kind of threw the laws of nature out of whack by becoming civilized and other animals don't handle it well. They don't know they aren't supposed to be in our gardens, swimming pools, and warm houses...it's also necessary to the animals. If they over populate there won't be enough resources for any of them to survive.

That's a far cry different from killing a baby because we don't want it. Even in the cases of some of the animals above there are laws that protect them to an extent (can't use a salt lick to hunt deer, can only take a limited number of them, etc) other animals are protected even more stringently (American Eagles, polar bears, etc) there are no laws to protect unborn babies under any circumstances.

Kill a bald eagle and the Government will put you in prison. Go to planned parenthood to kill a baby and the same Government will pay part or all of the expenses to do it.

Something just doesn't seem right about that.

Last edited by madd693 (2013-04-27 13:54:16)

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#22 2013-04-27 12:00:17

          United States    madd693
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@calibur 

There have been countless studies on the subject since the 1970's with more information coming every year. It's no longer a question of IF babies learn in the womb, it only remains a question of when they start learning. A simple google search will give you plenty to read on the subject for days.

http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20130102/babies-learn-womb

http://www.sfuhl.org/f_learning_in_womb.htm

http://karthikkn.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/world-in-the-womb-prenatal-intelligence-and-memory/

http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/01/02/while-in-womb-babies-begin-learning-language-from-their-mothers/

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/11/opinion/paul-ted-talk

There is no question intelligence begins prenatal. For certain within the last 10 weeks of pregnancy and likely much sooner.

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#23 2013-04-27 01:37:03

          United States    calibur
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




I thought I posted this already, but please elaborate on the in-womb intelligence being proven.

Human beings, without their intelligence, are animals. Animals get killed out of inconvenience- billions of bees, ants, and termites are genocidally exterminated every year.

Last edited by calibur (2013-04-27 01:37:51)

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#24 2013-04-26 21:17:42

          United States    madd693
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




One last thing on the 'alive' argument. The contention that a baby in the womb isn't alive because it doesn't 'breathe' is equally ridiculous. That baby receives it's oxygen needs from the mother through the umbilical cord. The notion that because it doesn't breathe through it's nose or mouth means it isn't "alive" is just nuts.

Millions of people are using something in order to breathe, without which breathing would be incredibly difficult or impossible. If ability to breathe on your own is your definition of 'life' then every person who is using an artificial lung, is connected to a machine that forces air into the lungs, is hooked up to an oxygen tank, or takes breathing medication MUST be declared to not be 'alive' since they rely on an outside source for their oxygen needs. How ridiculous is that?

Last edited by madd693 (2013-04-26 21:18:44)

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#25 2013-04-26 20:56:22

          United States    madd693
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




So far the 'pro choice' arguments given here have been demonstrably false.

-That a baby in the womb has no capacity for intelligence. Fallacy that was disproved four decades ago.

-That a baby in the womb isn't alive. Even the pro-choice 'experts' admit this claim is false.

Are you all content basing such a critical moral judgment on false information? I don't think so. Most around here seem fairly intelligent so that wouldn't make much sense. Much more likely you allow yourselves to be willfully ignorant of anything that makes your stance on abortion uncomfortable. That's a unique phenomenon of the human psyche. The ability to discount, ignore, or just flat refuse to believe any proof that doesn't fit our own preconceived ideas. If you can make yourself believe that a baby in the womb isn't -really- alive, or that it can't -really- learn then your own sense of morality won't conflict with your political stance on abortion. But all you are really doing is lying to yourself. No lie is worse than one we tell ourselves and believe. It makes anything we choose permissible and justifiable.

If you accept the PROVEN truth, that a baby in the womb, at least after a certain point, is a living, intelligent human being then you have a moral dilemma on your hands when you politically support killing said babies. Much easier to dismiss the truth and pretend you don't know it.

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#26 2013-04-26 19:24:22

          United States    madd693
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@irishgenius 

A fetus isn't alive? That might be the most ridiculous thing I've read on this site. Even the most ardent abortion supporters don't try to make that absurd argument.

 

 A fetus is certainly alive, and it might fairly be argued that a fetus is a distinct living entity... 

 

That's from a strongly pro CHOICE source that tries very hard to reconcile the fact that abortion is killing a living being by comparing a fetus to a worm, of all things, I suppose to make some sort of point that while a fetus is alive, it doesn't have much value.

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canad … rson.shtml

The pro-choice argument isn't that a fetus isn't alive, but rather that it is wholly dependent on the mother to sustain that life. That is a fundamentally flawed argument. A newborn baby is wholly dependent one someone else for survival as well. So are a great many ADULTS, should we kill all of them too?

A child's heart begins to beat at 6 1/2 weeks. Premature babies have survived normally after being in the womb 21 weeks and is considered legally 'viable' at 20 weeks in many US states as at that point is has been determined the child can feel pain. In other states, and indeed in other countries abortions can be performed much later than that. The so-called "late term abortions" which, it is beyond me why that doesn't carry a murder charge as at that point the child isn't wholly dependent on mother for survival, indeed the baby could survive quite normally outside of the womb.

You may support abortion all you like, but if you do so because you believe a fetus isn't alive, then you are lying to yourself in order to assuage your conscious and remain guilt free for supporting a procedure that is clearly the taking of an innocent life.

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#27 2013-04-26 13:51:49

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@madd693 

Its a foetus!.not a Child!.A child is A LIVING,BREATHING HUMAN!.A foetus is a person in DEVELOPMENT,not ALIVE!.

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#28 2013-04-25 02:30:56

          United States    madd693
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@calibur 

It is not at all from a religious perspective. It is from a moral one. You are giving moral equivalence between a farm animal raised explicitly for food to that of a child. There simply is no equivalency.

The idea that a child in the womb has no capacity for intelligence is ridiculous in 2013. You may as well be claiming the earth is flat. Prenatal intelligence was proven almost 40 years ago.

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#29 2013-04-25 02:07:24

          United States    calibur
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@maddI'm 693 

I'm sure there are plenty of cows killed out of inconvenience.
Your surprise is a religious perspective. From a scientific perspective, homo sapiens are animals. Before they gain the capacity for intelligence... they are not people.

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#30 2013-04-25 01:30:40

          United States    madd693
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@calibur 

What??? There is no comparison. If you are comparing the life of livestock to that of a human child then your sense of morality is incredibly skewed.

With that completely insane logic then it should be fine to kill anyone at any time OR is should be illegal to raise livestock. Then there is the little issue that the cow is killed for food. The child is killed because it's inconvenient. There is no moral equivalency what so ever.

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#31 2013-04-25 01:22:15

          United States    calibur
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@madd693 

The child is alive inside the womb so why is killing it there any better than outside the womb?

The cow is alive in the farm so why kill it but not a child in the womb?

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#32 2013-04-24 22:49:20

          United States    madd693
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




 

 I am uncomfortable with the idea of abortion, but I firmly believe that it should be the woman in question's choice 

 

So the father should have no say in the matter and the child should have no representation?

What if the father wants the child but the mother doesn't? Last I checked it still takes two people to get pregnant so why does only one get to determine the childs fate?

Conversely what if the Father does NOT want the child? He has no say in the matter, instead he is forced to support the child for 18 years based solely on what the mother decides to do.

It is a decision that has a profound effect on the lives of TWO people, not including the child, yet only one gets to make the decision? Why?

 

 No one is proud of it, but it's better than hoping for an adoption 

 

Killing a child is better than putting it up for adoption? I fail to see any logic in that at all. There is no 'hoping' for an adoption, at least not in the USA. The waiting lists are very long of couples waiting to adopt a child. Couples go to great extremes to adopt children.

 

 or chaining your life back because you have to care for a child. 

 

So for you it's a matter of convenience. If it's too much work to raise a child, just kill it. Interesting. Why not allow killing a 3 mo. old baby, then? Try it out for a while and if it's too much of a problem, just kill the kid. The child is alive inside the womb so why is killing it there any better than outside the womb?

If you don't want a child, don't get pregnant. Abortion as birth control is obscene.

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#33 2013-04-24 10:23:59

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




facepalm@calibur 

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#34 2013-04-20 01:27:34

          United States    calibur
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@irishgenius 

I was inviting him to create a real argument. He declined.

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#35 2013-04-18 10:18:40

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@calibur 

Hear Hear

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#36 2013-04-14 19:59:13

          United States    calibur
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




@SEC-179 

...and? Why should your thought limit anyone?

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#37 2013-04-14 03:54:19

          United States    SEC-179
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




I am, with out a doubt, pro-life. I think abortion should be illegal.

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#38 2012-07-20 19:16:41

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




I'm pro-choice but don't agree with it personally.What gives e the right to decide what a woman can or cannot do.

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#39 2012-07-13 06:37:56

               cdoyle
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




when does a baby develop conciousness? that i think should be the question. if you are a 15 yo girl who was raped, would you want to have a constant reminder? but i also believe you should consider all options b4hand although im nt exactly an expert, being neither girl nor doctor

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#40 2012-07-13 03:04:27

               epdoa
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Re: Should abortion be legal?




Here are three dark, yet positive reasons why abortion should be legal:
1.It will somewhat slowdown population explosion.

2.The fetus does not have a fully developed conscience to fear death, so it would be like removing a flower from the ground.

3. If the baby were to be born in a dysfunctional family, why make him/her suffer it?

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