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  • » Religion - Room 1
  • » Deism or Theism by SgtPeppers
  •    A question for those of you who believe in a god.

    This question requires some background

    A Deist refers to someone who believes God triggered the beginning of the universe (possibly through the Big bang)and has not interfered in any event since (meaning no prayer, no ritual or anything like that is of any concern to him).

    A theist is someone who believes n a "personal god", who interferes in human affairs, answers prayers, etc.


    So which one are you? Which one makes more sense? Why?

    Edit

#21 2011-11-30 07:07:49

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

I must say good sir that the Prists in the Greek Orthodox Churches that I attended as a child never once told me to kill in the name of our God or to kill at all. Just to bring more people along to church with us. Thats it. So you are wrong. Also, I have already explained how your people have caused death and will not go through that again. You are no better than us. We simply admit that we have done bad things in the past in the form of our ancestors who practised our religion. Truth hurts mate but you have to accept it some time.

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#22 2011-11-28 14:19:47

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

One group is better than the other, my side does not believe in irrational stories and we don't believe books that perpetually spout violence and which openly demand it from followers.

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#23 2011-11-28 08:29:17

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

I dont think we are going to see eye to eye on the obvious mistakes that not only Christians make but also atheists make. Neither group is better than the other and I dont think you can reasonably argue otherwise with any succes.

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#24 2011-11-25 13:53:40

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

THey did not get a lot of money, they built the weapon that was needed to save the world from Germany, but Germany never developed the bomb and as such were defeated by conventional means. They did what was at the the time an absolute necessity, I suppose you understand the consequences of a nuclear Germany, and if you do, then you understand why the bomb had to be built. The fact was that the people who built the weapons never wanted them used, especially not on civilian targets, the original plans were military targets, or a designated area which the Japanese could observe, the christians chose to use it on civilian targets instead.

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#25 2011-11-25 06:10:58

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

I will repeat my theoretical example of what you are saying and trying to justify by you basically saying that, 'Atheists are not as bad as Christians in the way that they gave the most destructive weapon in man kinds history to one side of two warring factions of nations and saying, "Hay, do whatever you want to it as long as I get a shit load of money for it and get rembered throughout history for building the damned thing," '.

Basically the example is you giving a hand gun to a 13 year old who is getting beaten up by bullies at school and saying, 'Mate carry this around with you and do whatever you want with it but pay me some money".

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#26 2011-11-25 06:03:46

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

First of all if the Russians had used captured German knowledge to try and make their own Atomic Bomb then they would have gotten no-where as the Germans went in the wrong direction of research for atomic bomb building as you could see for yourself by just checking that out and seeing what I mean. In any case, the Soviet Russians had already gotten their hands on Atomic secrets from a slavic scientist of whos nation of origin I forget, who was working on the Manhattan Project, and despite this it took them until, I beleive, the late 1940's to test detonate their first atomic bomb.

Anyway, the whole point of why I was saying that the USA and NATO and its member nations in Europe that were rebuilding, could have defeated the Soviets in a conventional war in the event of a Russian Soviet invasion of NATO Europe, was because I already knew that no-body could have won a nuclear war and since everyone was smart enough to know that, that it would have never been attempted by either side, and that therefore an execution of a conventional invasion by the Soviets would have been the obvious choice in order to acheive their goals of securing their Western Borders, or of the Spreading of Communism and the Freeing of the Western Proliteriate or simply World Domination. In this such event, I was never concerned with NATO conquering Russia and the USSR as that was not their goal. It was their mmber nations survival and the containing of the sprad of Communism and the USSR. And I beleive that by fighting a defensive war in Europe and utilising their superiority in technology and training, that they could have won a war against the Soviets which would have simply entailed surviving as free nations.

Anyway, remember that if this scenario happend before say 1949 when the Soviets had Nuclear Capability, then the US and NATO could have simply nuked Soviet armies and cities without Nuclear retaliation and the existance of the M.A.D. situation and they would have won since it would have been only them using Nukes/A-Bombs. If this scenario happend after 1949 when the Soviets had nuclear capability, assuming that they were able to some how magically arm their airforce with dozens or hundreds of A-Bombs quickly after Nuclear armament, without taking months if not years to set up nuclear facilities for uranium and plutonium enrichment and all other neccessaties, then it still would not have mattered because most European NATO members had gotten re-building very much under way and had re-armed and rebuilt their militaries and the US had increased its troop deployments to Europe due to bad Soviet-NATO relations. Also, the US and NATO always had the better navy and airforce and could have basically, 'fucked up the Soviets shit' even without ground superiority. And remember, the US and NATO had better technology alround.

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#27 2011-11-23 02:25:05

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

No, the atheists had the knowhow to make the bomb and in historical context they had no choice, if the nazis had nuclear capability before the Allies, the war would have been over, the christians were the ones though, who had been given the authority to make the choice.

Getting back to your nonnuclear third world war, it is questionable if the West could have won it, the Russians had mobilized their full military strength and production power, whereas the allies had sent most of their troops home, if the Soviets had attacked Europe, a place already ruined by war, it is doubtful if a counter offensive could have saved Europe and with Europe fallen, the war would be virtually unwinnable, and all that assumes the Soviets did not use the captured German knowledge to build their own bomb. You may disagree with this military assessment and I don't want to argue it, but even in your scenario you have the allies invading a nation fundamentally against democracy and who basically worship the state, imagine the invasion of Japan, except with people better armed and able to hide in a country the size of Russia. It would be a no win either way.

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#28 2011-11-22 09:05:20

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

HMMM? Another World War in which millions if not more than ten million or more soldiers and possibly more others die and in which NATO and the UN defeat the Soviets and Communists and establish a democratic republic in Russia half a century before it was due to happen, and a united Germany never being divided but re-armed and allied with the West to fight and get revenge on the Soviets?

That sounds better than possible Nuclear anihilation by tens of thousands of Nuclear devices detonating in or over every major city of 100,000 or more souls in every country in the world.

And what you said about the atheists making the bomb but the Christians using it is just silly. The Christians just had the guts to do what the atheists were too scared to do. To drop the bomb on the Japanese. They still made the damn thing and gave it away to people. And if I recall, it was an atheist nuclear physicist who gave the atomic secrets to Stalin and the Russians. Whats his name?

Justifying what you said about the bomb makers inocence and them being able to obsolve themselves of any reponsibility for the Atomic Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be like me giving a loaded hand gun to a 13 year old kid and saying go and sort out your problems. You still supplied the weapons and are as guilty as the users.

Haven't you seen Lord of War? Great movie by the way. But do you gvet the point I am getting across? Same message as the movie.

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#29 2011-11-22 04:08:23

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

Albert Einsteins only role in the Manhattan project was to write a letter telling Roosevelt the nazis could not be allowed to get the bomb before the allies did.

On your first point, no, I don't have to stop saying all christians are bad, partially because I never said they were, but also because a group cannot be viewed as rooting out extremists until they acknowledge that those extremist are actually following the same religion they are, otherwise they are condemning a group with no admitted affiliation to them.

Back to the atom bomb, the atheists built it, but the christians were the ones who decided how to use it, if you researched, you would find that those who built these weapons were the ones most opposed to using them.

Also, the argument could (and has) been made that the advent of nuclear weapons is the reason that world war 3 never occurred, without them the US and the USSR would have been at war within 5 years of the Japanese defeat.

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#30 2011-11-22 03:48:07

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

Okay here it goes.

"The extremists read the same holy book as I have read, and they ahve done bad things in the name of it, and they should be brought to justice, though my religion and its followers like me, was not to blame, as we actively help bring those peopl to justice.".

Does that mean you have to stop saying all Christians are bad?

I have read the book and still beleive in the Big Bang as the current most logical possibility of creation. But i beleive that something more powerfull than the Big Bang itself, e.g. a GOD, must have set in place the Big Bang. Like IrishGeniug said, there is no other possibility. And just because the supposedly smartest people on the planet say one thing does not mean it is right.

If i recall correctly, one of your guys, your old friend Albert Einstein, created the most destructive weapon know to our little race. You know, the A-Bomb, and he supported it being dropped on a few hundred thousand Japanese people. Now while I admit that it had to be done, nevertheless the books that atheists like you hold so dear to yourselves, physics books, have plans for nuclear fission both controlled (Nuclear powerplants), and explosive catastrophic (Nuclear bombs).

So does that mean that I can say that all atheists are bad because one of you blew up/killed from radiation poisoning, a few hundred thousand people, or because your holy book(physics books), shows people how to make weapons? NO. I can not. It is intolerant and my religion preaches the opposite. And that is all I care about. The good parts that are still relevant to todays world.

And please dont say, (and I know you are thinking aboutn this right now), that I have once again made the mistake of classing you and atheists as a religion which you are not and therefor have no arguement. I dont care if you are a religion. The fact is you have made yourself and other atheists into a group by saying what you have said, and I can debate against you and your group in the same way you are arguing against Christianity.

I am happy to debate though and wish to here your response.

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#31 2011-11-18 20:31:20

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@irishgenius 

I do not acknowledge that a person is a moderate until they admit that they do not follow their holy book because it is not a good moral guide and they condemn the actions of the fundamentalist, to date, almost every single "moderate" I have spoken to refuse to admit that the extremists do in fact read the same book as the moderates do.

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#32 2011-11-18 11:32:32

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

Fundamentalists Kill people not us moderates do not.no wonder you hate all religions if you think if its all about control and denying evidence mad

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#33 2011-11-18 00:34:07

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@irishgenius 

I have grown really tired of people telling me to distinguish moderates verses extremists. Extremists are people who have actually read their holy books, the moderates have obviously not bothered. If you don't condemn the ones who read the same book as you and do things like deny evolution or kill people, then you are no better than they are.

As for there being "no other logical way", if that were true, then the smartest and most logical people on the planet would agree with YOU, not with me.

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#34 2011-11-17 14:08:12

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

You seem to believe that all Christians are fundamentalists.We are not.I believe in God for there is no other logical way.I did a LOT of search through religions and the theory of evolution and found Christianity the winner.

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#35 2011-11-16 15:06:37

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

Sorry, but this is important enough for its own post. In regards to your earlier point about there not being proof for any of this. Well,it turns out there is. For the big bang
1. Cosmic microwave background radiation
2. Doppler affect
3 Size of universe fitting with expansion

As for your continued contention that scientists "were not there", are you saying nothing can be proven after the fact? By that logic the police cannot ever convict someone of a crime, because they were not there to see it, do you see why this idea is ridicules.

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#36 2011-11-16 14:17:10

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

No, gravity affects time, the GPS Satellites orbiting earth have special clocks that are adapted so that they would not fall off proper earth time, because they were not off once by a fraction of a second they were consistently falling behind, this is a rudimentary principle of physics. Time also slows down at extremely high speed, such as when you are approaching light speed, this is absolute fact.

As for the individuals you keep mentioning, their religious views are not relevant and their authority to give that religion credibility does not exist. I take physicists at their word because the can prove things to a reasonable certainty. Time has to slow down at the speed of light because if it did not, then something inside an object (like say, a spaceship) travelling at 99.99999999999 % the speed of light, could do something inside this space ship like run along the length and adding their speed to the ships, they would break the speed of light, which is impossible. If I did not explain it clearly, I could find videos of people making the same point more articulately.

Last edited by SgtPeppers (2011-11-16 14:27:49)

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#37 2011-11-16 04:32:59

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

Einsteins theory of relativity in this case does not prove anything about whether or not there was time or whether or not time slows down. I have seen the evidence on the various theories about time slowing down including on documentaries about it which include supposed evidence from trips on the International Space Station from which astronauts and physicists have claimed to seen clocks or timers slow down by one thousanth of a second. This is completely ridiculous as it must have something to do with the fact that all clocks are eventually off by one fraction of a second as they tick and this adss up over time which is why clocks need to have built in measures to keep them ticking in time. They must have not know everything about this phenomenon and made mistakes. Also, Einsteines "'Theory' of Relativity" when it comes to time dialation and other things is exactly that, a theory. It has not been proven that time slows down or that it didn't exist before the Big Bang. I cant stres this enough. No matter what you provide or who's theoies you refer me to watch, they were not there at the time and also, despite the fact that we know our own laws of physics, they do not however know what was going on back then and whether or not physics did not count or did count or was different.

And the reason I keep stating inventors that have been religious but also great academics and intellects and inventors, is because you seem to hold the word of various physicists that you know over the word of various people that I have brought to light. I am merely trying to show that they have done and created great things and so their word can be taken into account just as much as the guys that you have mentioned.

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#38 2011-11-15 18:56:52

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

Again, the belief or disbelief in god by a famous scientist is not only irrelevant, but also an argument from authority fallacy. Look at Isaac Newton, he was a prolific writer of Christian books, but he is remembered for his scientific contributions, his faith was irrelevant.

Also, you keep trying to get me to disprove god, but I will say again it is absolutely impossible to totally disprove anything. The onus is on you to support your claims. As for my arguments of pre-big bang physics, try watching Stephan Hawking's Universe on Youtube, I believe he goes into the reasons. Can I add that Einsteins relativity theory has shown that in extreme high gravity (like say, in a pinprich containing the entire universe) or at the speed of light, time actually stops, Partially to prevent anything from breaking the speed of life.

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#39 2011-11-15 04:09:22

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

Please give me one piece of evidence that proves that there was no God before the Big Bang, or that there was no time. Or any provenj theories by any physicist or scientist that disproves the existance of a God now and before the Big Bang and the non-existance of time.

It has been, by may peoples count, including physicists, about 16 billion years I think you said, since the Big Bang. How could all these physicists you have mentioned know what the laws of physics were or were not at that time. You need to give me a bit more than just some smart guys theories on what could have possibly happened billions of years ago. These are all scientific theories not hard scientific fact.

Why are all these people you mention right about there not being a God when so many other scientists and inventors have beleived in God and have created devices and technology and machines that I must say, have been more important to human advancement than much of the physics work that people like Stephen Hawkings have done?

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#40 2011-11-12 19:14:09

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

You fail to understand even rudimentary science, they don't need to have been there to know what occurred. We do know that our laws of physics, including our perception of time, for after the big bang, if they existed before it then we would already know the exact cause.

As for your insistence that I acknowledge that many scientists believe in god, I have done so many times, but the right to have an opinion is not equivalent to the right to be taken seriously, they can believe whatever they like, but they have to (and have many times) admit that it cannot be proven and thus has no relevance in the field of hard science.

Looking at the physicists quote (Can you please provide a name?) you would see that he refers to time as how HUMANS sequence events, humans were not around prior to the big bang, so we evolved in a universe with time (if the laws of nature had developed in our universe so time did not exist, we may not exist), he said nothing about pre-big bang conditions.

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