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  • Index
  • » Religion - Room 1
  • » Deism or Theism by SgtPeppers
  •    A question for those of you who believe in a god.

    This question requires some background

    A Deist refers to someone who believes God triggered the beginning of the universe (possibly through the Big bang)and has not interfered in any event since (meaning no prayer, no ritual or anything like that is of any concern to him).

    A theist is someone who believes n a "personal god", who interferes in human affairs, answers prayers, etc.


    So which one are you? Which one makes more sense? Why?

    Edit

#61 2011-11-01 07:53:09

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers It actually gives a reason for something that other people claim just happened. And by the way, the laws of physics may have been different before the big bang but they sure did exist and time was still around, we all just have our own perception of time as humans, it does not mean time and the laws of physics were not around. Saying that a God created the big bang is no less logical than saying the big bang just happened or that there is no reason or that due to the apparent lack of laws of physics that it is not relevant.

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#62 2011-10-30 16:41:00

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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@PatrickDup 

It could have been a buildup of pure energy, or it could have been caused by another universe contracting in the manner that I believe was discussed earlier. I would recommend that you yourself research the current hypothesis as I don't keep up with developments in physics, but to my knowledge we cannot apply the usual causality to actions before the big bang because they did not operate under our rules of physics. Given this, it is entirely possible that no cause need exist. The problem with postulating a god is that saying god did it does not explain anything, it replaces the unknown of "what caused the big bang" with "where did the god come from", it does not serve to enhance understanding unless we can somehow qualify or quantify god.

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#63 2011-10-30 05:00:46

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers Yes okay so we have cosmic microwave backround radiation and the doppler effect which kind of explains how it works, but this is all based on what we know of light at our current level of advancement, it is still a theory and none of us were there at the outset of the big bang. In any case, this does not prove that something stronger or more powerfull than the neccessary force that would have been required to have brought all the matter from all the stars, planets, moons, red and white dwarfs and black holes in all the galaxies in the current universe to a tiny point, and then letting it expand out at the enormous rate and speed and velocity and momentum that the matter would have done due to the laws of physics that dictate that it has to gain its natural state or form or density. This would have been a huge force, a powerful force, more poweful than the Big Bang itself. Please tell me what else apart from a God could have done all this.

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#64 2011-10-30 02:08:08

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

On your last point, we have huge amounts of evidence for the big bang theory, we have the Doppler effect showing the universe is expanding and if we extrapolate backwards we find that everything that is expanding was in the same place 15 billion years ago, we have the cosmic background radiation, for information on that you will have to do some research, I cannot explain it cohesively.

As for the god question, can you prove that it was not magic pixies who cause it, or the flying spaghetti monster, because the question of whether god did it is the same as any of those.

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#65 2011-10-29 19:58:00

          United States    The Expert
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers,

Fair enough.

The Expert.

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#66 2011-10-29 08:46:43

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers Wait i wrote the word hypothesis instead of theory, or at least meant to say that it was both in my example. I will post it again and then continue.

If a woman was raped and killed in your backyard at night and lets just say it was quick enough for the killer to escape before ayone came out of their houses to see what the hell was going on, and then you ring the police once the screaming has stopped because you did not want the killer to know you were there because you were scared, and the police come and find no sperm and no suspects hairs on the victim, then would't they possibly make a theory about what happened there and why you took so long to ring them, and say that maybe you did it. That is a hypothesis and theory all in one and it would not be enough to prove you guilty or clear you of any suspicion from the police.

So in the same way that the police would have made an unprovable theory that they could not prosecute anyone with, you and many scientists have made a very reasonable and interesting but ultimately unproveable theory that you cannot use to disprove the theory of a God or Christ.

I understand that you do not think this is an example of a theory, but that it what I learnt in school in science class during pracs and writings. If you disgree then we must agree to disagree but i am pretty sure i am right.

In any case, what is the evidence that you and scientists have that proves the big bang theory, and further more, what evidence do you have that a God did not create the big bang?

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#67 2011-10-29 05:26:47

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@The Expert 

If they are provable, then present this proof, or if you feel you cannot express it, then provide links. Please, do not send me to a site which argues that the universe looks designed so it therefore has a designer, or any of the other useless claims that tare not equivalent to actual proof.

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#68 2011-10-28 16:35:16

          United States    The Expert
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers,

No, they are provable. Though as I said, my only regret is that I can't pursue the argument with enough eloquence to convince you.

The Expert.

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#69 2011-10-27 21:31:18

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@The Expert 

How about we agree that your claims are unprovable, but that you cannot be convinced out of them.

Agreed?

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#70 2011-10-27 20:49:13

          United States    The Expert
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers,

Fascinating, my only regret being I can not pursue the argument with elegance; with enough persuasion to convince you. But for now, we shall agree to disagree. Agreed?

The Expert.

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#71 2011-10-27 19:46:09

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@The Expert 

My interest in religion is mostly a "know your enemy" concept, religion is on the decline, every statistic shows this, historically they have not gone quietly, so it is best for everyone if the dynamics are understood

As for "atheist", I personally despise the term, we do not classify any other group based on what they do not believe, "Christians" are called that because they believe in christ, we don't all you Flyingspagettimonsterrejectionists (maybe we should start, just to irritate you) I prefer rationalist, or PEARList, PEARL being an acronym meaning:
Physical
Evidence
And
Reasoned
Logic

Both of those describe what we do believe, rather than what we don't

Also, every theist in the world is also a atheist.

Let me explain

Krishna, Zeus, Baal and Osiris, as well as every other deity man has created, with one exception, are rejected by you. You are an atheist in the perspective of over 10 000 deities, the list of things you do not believe in is exactly the same as my list, except mine has 1 (or 3, depending on which bible verse you look at) name more. Therefore, you and every other theist, is almost completely atheist.


I just hope to add one more name to a theists list, that is why I give a shit.

Just to explain why I am an "atheist", it is because I refuse to trivialize my life and the wonders of this universe by saying "it is there because something wants it to be", that is the ultimate cop out.

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#72 2011-10-27 18:42:17

          United States    The Expert
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Re: Deism or Theism




For an "atheist", you sure seem to be taking a interest "religion".
Also, as to me, I'm a theist.

The Expert.

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#73 2011-10-27 12:43:47

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

But that is not what theory means, when a scientific idea is called a theory, it is supported by all the evidence we have, has survived the peer review process and is being constantly added to.

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#74 2011-10-27 04:43:27

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers As I learnt it in science at school, a theory is something that has been hypothisised and reasearched to the point that it is thought to be a possibility. It is different than proving something to be true. If a woman was raped and killed in your backyard at night and lets just say it was quick enough for the killer to escape before ayone came out of their houses to see what the hell was going on, and then you ring the police once the screaming has stopped because you did not want the killer to know you were there because you were scared, and the police come and find no sperm and no suspects hairs on the victim, then would't they possibly make a theory about what happened there and why you took so long to ring them, and say that maybe you did it. That is a hypothesis and it would not be enough to prove you guilty or clear you of any suspicion from the police. It is the same with the way I used the word theory when refferring to the Big Bang as it is a theory.

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#75 2011-10-26 23:54:14

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@jesuschrist 

The executed for adultery is part of the 10 commandments, any person violating any one of them is supposed to be put to death

There is a site that was recently brought to my attention, Skeptics annotated bible, it is a full version of the bible, with every verse annotated to show its meaning

Here is a random set of 8 annotations for verses in the book of Leviticus (verse numbers provided) the search parameters were verses dealing with cruelty, the total number is 154 cruel verses

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Couldn't we try spanking first? 20:9

Both parties in adultery shall be executed. 20:10

If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both. 20:11

If a man "lies" with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed. 20:12

If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13

If you "lie" with your wife and your mother-in-law (now that sounds fun!), then all three of you must be burned to death. 20:14

If a man or woman "lie with a beast" both the person and the poor animal are to be killed. 20:15-16

People with "familiar spirits" (witches, fortune tellers, etc.) are to be stoned to death.  20:27

A priest's daughter who "plays the whore" is to be burned to death. 21:9


Now you will say, "But that is old testament" so here is the first 7 out of 26 listed in Matthew under the same parameters

1.Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

Now, please do not pick one specific verse and go after it, I did not cherry pick the ones that make my point, I selected a representative sample and if you want to play that game, I have 52 more books to chose from.

Also, here are two gems of morality from Lot, supposedly the only moral man god could find in Sodom (Genesis)



Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Pet.2:7-8. 19:8

Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, and have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story. 19:30-38

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#76 2011-10-26 21:45:26

          United States    jesuschrist
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers this is completely untrue. If you want to disparage the bible that is your right, but please indicate the precise passages to which you are refering. Because without a precise quote what you say doesn't have any value.

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#77 2011-10-26 13:41:50

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

You have misused the word theory, in scientific terminology theory is an idea confirmed by evidence. Your use of the her is in line with the colloquial term, which actually means what a scientist would call a hypothesis (A falsifiable idea yet to be tested). Could a god like being have caused it all, yes, is it likely NO.

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#78 2011-10-26 02:51:41

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers Do you beleive that a God cannot keep developing and evolving? Do you beleive that the "'Big Bang' THEORY", as it is actually called by practically everyone including scientists, that it is possible that it heppened without some great force to trigger it? As you described it, all the elemets and gases and particles and energy in existence started off as being compressed into a tiny point and then released. It would have taken something with not only the same ammount of energy or power as all that matter and energy, but something with the power to bring it all into that point. A GOD or a God like being that could have created all that stuff/matter/energy and or got that matter/stuff/energy and brought it all together and then release it, would be the logical explanation. And as I partly already mentioned, eveything about the big bang is a theory mate. Backround energy is also a theory. It is very well possible that it is just UV, gamma, xray, white light or other energy that has been travelling across the universe from stars or gamma ray bursts or super novas or collapsing black holes or any one of many other extraterrestrial space phenomenons or events that we know about and even things that we haven't discovered yet. There is absolutely no way we can know that the Big Bang Theory is factual, even I say that despite my positive opinion about it. We haven't even found out about everything that has happened in our human history here on Earth and you say that the Big bang is a fact. Sorry to say mate but that is a totally unfounded comment. So the question still stands, why do you disagree with the possibility of a God when it is just as logical as the Big Bang Theory.

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#79 2011-10-25 20:37:09

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@jesuschrist 

On what you said last, I say bulls***, if they followed the bible then they would be worse than you can imagine.

The bibles morality says that you can be executed for adultery, it says that rape is only a crime if it is against a married woman, it says that if married woman is raped and does not scream loud enough then she will be killed as an adulterer, it says NOT 1 word against pedophilia, but considers homosexuals abominations worthy of the death penalty. This is a god who you people claim exterminated everyone except one family, including children, not to mention women carrying unborn children. Then christians have the gaul to try and force these beliefs on others, then consoling themselves with the fact their book says every person who disagrees with them will burn in hell for the rest of time.

Anyone who attempt to justify christian morality is a blatant sociopath, not someone who should be followed

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#80 2011-10-25 17:23:49

          United States    jesuschrist
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers "
Is he able, but not willing?" i already answered this question  in my previous post. God is almighty, he can do everything, but he only helps the strong and brave souls in need for help. And he cannot mess with free will, or take actions take would make people massively aware of his presence. God also chooses not to help humans if they can learn lesons. For example : ww1, ww2. Didn't humans learn their lesson? At least, in europe, there is no more fighting. The goal of God is to guide mankind to respect the message of christ, by their own will and thinking.

"If we have free will, but have not been given the knowledge of what is right, the question remains, how are we responsible for breaking the rules."

Again, in my previous post I kind of answered, but i am not sure. Those who have not heard the message of Christ have a lot of chances of living a life of sin. And, I do not know what God will do of them. I do believe that some souls are fundamentaly good, or bad. But I must admit I don't know.

But you have to agree that if, for example, the drug cartels in Mexico, or the people of Bancock, followed the message of christ, live would be a lot better for everyone.

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