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  • » Religion - Room 1
  • » Religious visions? by irishgenius
  •    Are religious visions true or are they fake?

    I myself have experienced a vision.when i was around 5 or 6 years of age I saw Jesus straight across from me.I was amazed.I was standing on very white clouds,not naturally whit but very see-through clouds.the clouds I standing on were in my room!I could see my whole room and myself sleeping!Stiring about.Then he started to speak to me.I can't remember what he said but remember that he said that i was supposed to do something important for mankind and the choice is up to me.then i felt myself being pulled down back into my body with a gust of wind.A great experience!

                                                               omg

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#21 2012-01-17 08:51:03

          Earth    NoiseFree
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Re: Religious visions?




@SgtPeppers 

Curious about your reply. 
OK: psychoanalyses is based on examining that which is within.  However, do you agree that the social 'sciences' (psychology, sociology etc.) really strain at the model of science?  It seems to me that they flounder about with 'tendencies' and endless conveniently vague theories that show almost none of the certitude that the 'natural' sciences achieve.  It's as if they just borrow the word 'science' to give themselves legitimacy.

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#22 2012-01-17 01:28:01

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Religious visions?




@NoiseFree 

I agree, but science does both

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#23 2012-01-16 16:10:47

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Re: Religious visions?




@SgtPeppers 

I think I subconsciously tired to hijack this thread because, regardless of the more colourful challenges to the scientific model from supernatural experiences, there are a number of quite simple things that we can learn about who we are - collectively and as individuals - by looking within rather than looking outward to the material world.

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#24 2012-01-16 15:04:50

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Religious visions?




@NoiseFree 

It seems like the best way to understand our existence because it is, it does not make unprovable claims and so provides a picture of the real world as it actually is, without removing the wonder from it. Science produces unanswered questions, but it then answers them, one by one and in some cases a single discovery can allow entire disciplines to discover the answer to most of their questions.

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#25 2012-01-16 11:37:05

          Earth    NoiseFree
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Re: Religious visions?




@SgtPeppers 

The blue cheese example was not intended to demonstrate that science has its limits at any point in time - more to demonstrate that the scientific approach tends to actively dismiss as 'rubbish' that which does not fit its model, rather than just say 'we don't know'.  Maybe that attitude is not really scientific, but it is the attitude of many who think science is the be-all and end-all of understanding our existence.

I'm not really sure that the scientific community ever thought it had discovered everything though many have displayed such a form of conceit.  Once upon a time all was merely air, earth, fire and water.  But the more we probe into matter the more the next question appears... so what are atoms? So what then are electrons... and so on into sub sub sub atomic physics - not my area of expertise but I can't see that they will ever get to a point where the questions will end.  The reality is science produces more unanswered questions as it progresses.

Ockham's razor, as I understand it, is about trying to resolve uncertainty... guesstimating 'facts' based on certain rules of probability - minimum conjecture. That's fine but it is always working from the known... again erring on scientific analyses to 'explain' something rather than stating 'we really don't know'.

It could be that 100% of all the claims of supernatural experiences are complete nonsense and that there is NOTHING to correspond to our ideas of the supernatural.  That however does not change the fact that science, in my humble opinion, has become akin to an unjustifiably dogmatic religion in the minds of many... the ONLY means of understanding our existence.

Last edited by NoiseFree (2012-01-16 11:39:46)

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#26 2012-01-15 20:18:13

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Religious visions?




@NoiseFree 

I never claimed that what science cannot prove is not true, I simply am stating the fact that it has nothing to do with science, if a claim is unfalsifiable, it cannot be used to support a further claim. Whatever the truth of supernatural claims, they are irrelevant to science until they can be viewed part of the natural world.

Your example on blue cheese is not actually a condemnation of science, it is the very reason science works, it is a self correcting process, science is not always right, but it will correct itself, you are also dealing with science 1 century ago, where people believed everything had been discovered and so dismissed new ideas, no scientist today would make that claim, the arrogance you describe is now not arrogance but pragmatism.

On your breakfast claim, that is not a scientific argument, what you ate for breakfast is not something that needs proof from my perspective because it is of no relevance to understanding the natural world. You go on to say:
 

 if someone says they were visited in their mind by some supernatural being or spirit, you and I have no clue at all whether they are making the whole thing up or whether it is absolute fact. A problem with the scientific viewpoint however is that it will immediately start to explain away the situation by psychology: either the person is a delusional madman or some chemical brain conditions caused some abnormal function, or something else 'rational' happened.
 

 
I do not see this as a vice, if a person believes that they have experienced the supernatural, the only reasonable assessment under Ockham's razor is that either
1. The laws of nature have been suspended, in their favour, for the event to occur
2. They are under a misapprehension

The simplest explanation is that they are mistaken and 99.9 % of abnormal claims are shown to be just that, we have seen hundreds of thousands of mistakes in perception, hoaxes committed by charlatans and many there phenomena which fully explain the phenomena without violating the laws of nature, could an occasional claim be legitimate, of course, it is possible, but the scientific method requires all possible known causes to be considered and refuted before any other causes are considered.

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#27 2012-01-15 08:55:47

          Earth    NoiseFree
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Re: Religious visions?




@SgtPeppers 

You're really hooked on this science jab... as are most people. 
There are no end of charlatans and attention-grabbers with wild imaginations ready to tell anyone willing to listen that they have 'seen the light', 'spoken with god' or whatever.  But stay focused on this point: just because something cannot be verified by scientific procedure does not automatically make it false.
If I tell you I had muesli for breakfast this morning you have no way of knowing whether or not that's true... but I can tell you it IS true.
So if someone says they were visited in their mind by some supernatural being or spirit, you and I have no clue at all whether they are making the whole thing up or whether it is absolute fact. A problem with the scientific viewpoint however is that it will immediately start to explain away the situation by psychology: either the person is a delusional madman or some chemical brain conditions caused some abnormal function, or something else 'rational' happened.
Science once classed as stupid those 'witches' who said eating blue cheese could cure you of certain illnesses.  Only when science discovered that blue cheese had penicillin in it did it accept the facts.  But it's never really learned the nature of it's arrogance which made it DISMISS THAT WHICH WAS ALWAYS TRUE.

Last edited by NoiseFree (2012-01-15 09:02:38)

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#28 2012-01-14 20:34:13

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Religious visions?




@NoiseFree 

I do not deny that there very well may be things that science cannot understand, however if we simply say that certain things will never be understood and use pseudo-science to fill these gaps, we will not increase our understanding. Science does not have all the answers, but it also does not allow claims by people who say they do, if something must be assumed true on faith, how can we build further knowledge off of it, conviction without proof is a dead end for knowledge, so science does not accept it.

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#29 2012-01-14 08:23:06

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Re: Religious visions?




@SgtPepper's 

'if it cannot be proven one way or another, what use is it in trying to understand the universe'
That's a science-indoctrinated brain talking there!  To say that because you cannot achieve scientific agreement on something necessarily means it is to be dismissed is just conditioning.  Supposing there are aspects of the universe that can only be revealed to the subjective mind - i.e. the individual personal consciousness.  Such things are not admissible in the scientific view because they cannot be scientifically assessed and given a pass mark... but who said everything in the universe had to fit into the scientific model?  And why do we say THE universe.  If you focus on the subjective 'inner-space' side of our existence, it's clear that each of us lives in their own private universe.  It's no coincidence that science dismisses that whole view of the universe as bunkum... the scientific model of knowledge simply cannot deal with it.
It's all a bit like when kids cover their eyes and imagine that others cannot see them because they cannot see the others.  Science has it's rules... where are the holy tablets that say they are the whole story?

Last edited by NoiseFree (2012-01-14 08:27:03)

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#30 2012-01-14 03:58:41

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Religious visions?




@NoiseFree 

No, the rules of science are that a question that is not able to be evaluated based on evidence is not the jurisdiction of science, if it cannot be proven one way or another, what use is it in trying to understand the universe.

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#31 2012-01-13 17:11:38

          Earth    NoiseFree
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Re: Religious visions?




@SgtPeppers 

We all know the rules of science.  One of them is that if something does not fit those rules it is 'ruled out'  That's blind.  Who told science that everything that can have meaning would fit those (man-made) rules?
There are laws that say you cannot park your car in certain places.  Many of us just ignore those laws and whadya know... you CAN park in those places.
Science just decided that what was not objectively and repeatedly demonstrable didn't count.  Why?  Only because man noticed he could manipulate the external material world and wanted a discipline that would document how to do it.  Fine, but there's more to our existence than the external material world... and science is useless in those other departments.

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#32 2012-01-13 14:38:29

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Religious visions?




@NoiseFree 

Never become so openminded your brain falls out. Science does not acknowledge what cannot be shown because it cannot be supported by evidence. It is functionally irrelevant, the conviction with which a case is made has no relevance to it voracity or it truthfulness.

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#33 2012-01-13 11:24:06

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Religious visions?




Science in terms of our knowledge of it

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#34 2012-01-13 11:23:39

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Religious visions?




Science and religion are both MAN-MADE things.And like everything man-made,there can be mistakes or lies added in to make it seem more realistic.

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#35 2012-01-13 09:48:01

          Earth    NoiseFree
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Re: Religious visions?




@SgtPeppers 

You guys seem to be a bit locked into yes/no positions as regards was it real or not.  Q: a real what?  It seems there are things on the edge of our consciousness that we have no tools to really make sense of... so our lack of certainty is well founded as regards such matters.  Note that the whole scientific view of our existence that DOMINATES (need bigger caps for that word!) modern thinking COMPLETELY dismisses the subjective experiences of the individual.  Science only accepts this stuff in terms of lab experiments that are OBJECTIVE.  So if you say 'This really happened' science just regards you as a nutter.  It insists that there be some 'proof'.  So I'm adding nothing to this debate other than that we all should consider that there are REAL aspects of our existence that (stupid) science trains us to dismiss, but that we should be open-minded about... but not gullible.

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#36 2012-01-07 17:24:47

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Religious visions?




@irishgenius 

I said it was trivial because no religious vision has ever provided information the humans do not know. Regardless of how "real" the vision felt, the fact is that it is no less real to the people who speak to Krishna or Allah, no matter how passionately you may believe something, that does not give it more validity.

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#37 2012-01-06 21:03:52

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Religious visions?




@SgtPeppers 

Maybe you have a point,but the point was not trivial.If you think doing something important is trivial,then you have a strange view but I digress.My vision was happening in real-time.I was experiencing it as tho I was there,in the flesh

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#38 2012-01-03 23:36:08

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Religious visions?




@irishgenius 

Actually there are thousands of cases just like yours, but I would ask, given two possibilities, which is the more reasonable explanation:

1. That an all powerful deity decided to appear to 1 child of around 5 or 6 years of age, provide no message and disappear or

2. That a child of 5 or 6 had a dream about a random topic, including many of the hallmarks of a dream


Looking at a sample of religious visions, they are always trivial and always involve no skeptics being around. Thousands of cases during the middle ages involved the virgin Mary appearing to support church doctrines. Nowadays we have people who claim alien abduction, always providing an account similar to others who have given one. Can I point out that Christians are not the only ones to have religious visions, Muslims do, Hindus do, all with just as much conviction, ergo if a god actually was behind these visions, he is deliberately deceiving most people of varying faiths while providing the people who are right with accurate visions.

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#39 2012-01-03 20:23:58

          Ireland    irishgenius
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Re: Religious visions?




@SgtPeppers 

Ya their not but still!I don't think there was ever a case like mine(I don't say that to try to sound boastful!)

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#40 2011-12-23 00:17:09

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Religious visions?




@irishgenius 

Some of your friends evidently are not very familiar either with dream psychology or with basic history (depending on what you were referring to).

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