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  • Index
  • » Religion - Room 1
  • » The Fading of Religion by Hephaestus
  •    Will religion last?

    This is something that has been intriguing me since Sgt. Peppers brought it up, quite some time ago, in the "Islam a terrorist religion?" debate. This is what he said:

    "Most religions go through these 3 stages

    1. Establishment- here the religion is young and usually pacifist, mostly due to the fact it lacks the numbers to do otherwise- ex. Mormonism, Scientology

    2. Extremism- here the religion is at a phase where it sees itself as the only truth and sees it as its duty to destroy other faiths. Christianity reached this phase during the crusades and didn't truly leave it until the reformation, counter reformation and the Inquisition.
    Islam is at this phase and will likely move on to the next one within this century (at least in some areas)

    3. Secularism- the religion becomes accepting of other faiths and violence becomes a rare occurrence. Most of the major religions are at or near this stage and it is here when a religion declines and eventually is overtaken, though I would speculate that this time, unlike the past times when this cycle has occurred (the rise of christianity in rome, for example) no new religion will replace it and instead atheism and agnosticism will become the predominant positions (this is supported by stats across the Western world, where many countries are almost universally atheist and even the ones that aren't have the religious faith mostly centred in the above 30 demographic, implying that once the older generations staryt to vanish, religion will go with them)"

    I thought that this would be a good topic for a debate, since the people here are from all over the world, with many kinds of beliefs. While I agree with almost everything in this statement, the only thing I am not convinced of is that "once the older generations staryt to vanish, religion will go with them". I have been raised a Muslim, and living in Indonesia where the more than 80% of the population are Muslims I do not see how, in any way, no matter how much time it takes, religion will vanish and will just be forgotten myths. Because religion, especially the major religions, is very, very strong. Religion is beautiful. I was taught that the world we live in is fair, full of goodness and with patience, we will become successful in it, and in the afterlife. Experience though, has taught me that the world is cruel, unfair, and delusional, and does not give a shit about you, and if you want to succeed, you have to work your ass off to get it.

    So it's always nice to think that the world is beautiful and judged by a fair God, I suppose. Most do not even try to seek truth, and all just accept the idea of the world they were taught (something we are all against, I believe). The point is that religion is very, very powerful, and people's faith in it is utterly incredible. It will be handed down, hammered into children's heads for generation after generation, and I do not see how this strong faith will just fade. The older generation will always teach their child religion, and their child, having had that religion his/her whole life, will carry that down as well, with strong faith in it. So how will it vanish? Will it vanish at all?

    What do you think?

    (edit) What's wrong with the picture? It was supposed to show symbols of religion. Oh well.

    Edit

#1 2014-07-12 11:16:19

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: The Fading of Religion




Religion will not disappear in the foreseeable future. evil

When I was a kid, I wanted to prove Christianity is not true. Then my mom said to me what good will it do? hum2

Now I realize religion is the spiritual support of the plebian, the powerless, the putonglaobaixing. hang

Ha. As long as there is inequality, there will be religion. hump

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#2 2012-08-30 12:53:59

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@Onechoise 

Okay, but how? It's not like the religious'll just give up the belief they've had their whole lives over some new "scientific discovery" dug out seemingly out of nowhere. Some of the religious are reasonable tolerant people, these are mostly internet people who have learned that shoving beliefs down people's throats does not work. But the religious who doesn't go around the internet much? The only reason I quit religion, in my opinion, was because I was lucky enough to be educated English and taught to read English novels earlier than other children by my father, and I think it's because of that that I became able to go around the internet, the place where people can say whatever they want, and form my own opinions on matters rather than following other seemingly "wiser" people.

But if you consider the number of people who are fluent in English and thus able to seek other atheists' opinions and form their own opinions, minus the number of people who do not like critical thinking among them, the possibility of pure strong religious faith disappearing just does not add up to me. One thing I noted about religion growing up is that they think subconsciously, if someone changed beliefs, it would mean that the person has been possessed and corrupted, as if some black magic has influenced them to change beliefs. And because of this subconscious assumption, they usually refuse to discuss anything related to religion and faith, you know, just so they won't get possessed by black magic too. And so people just force themselves to accept and strengthen the faith they have had, to live their beautiful life the way it is.

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#3 2012-08-30 12:09:57

          Philippines    Onechoise
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Re: The Fading of Religion




I think that religion will eventually fade due to the presence of science but people will persist to make a new religion/ or make some changes to it, that can also tackle in modern theology and modern science.

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#4 2012-08-30 10:12:41

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@SgtPeppers 

While I did not realize you meant only the Western world, I still do not think religion will disappear. Sure, atheists are growing, especially among the younger generation (me being one of them), mostly because of the internet, but most people aren't programmed to decide that they should ask "does God exist?". Most of them continue to believe what they have believed their whole life, and, as you have stated before (someplace else I do not remember) in the real world, as in, outside the internet, atheists are outnumbered by theists. You said 3 to 1, but I think it's much more than that. I'm (without the others' knowledge) the only atheist in my middle school here, and probably just one of a few dozen in the whole of Jakarta. I don't think that percentage will go up to 3 against 1, even in the Western world. I think faith is still strong there as well, and of course, adults still cram religion into their children the same way they do that here.

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#5 2012-08-30 03:37:25

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@calibur 

True, but the dietizing (I don't actually know what the word is for making into a deity, I suspect it is a lexical gap) is far more firmly established in western buddhism, because so many people don't look at the actual teachings here. I am not as well versed as I would like to be on eastern religious history, so you could well be right.

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#6 2012-08-30 03:30:31

          United States    calibur
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@SgtPeppers 

Your anti-westernist conviction is astounding. You're right, except that it was not westerners, but north Asians who dietized him.
Or perhaps I'm wrong.
Eastern everything is obviously just as bad if not worse than western.

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#7 2012-08-30 03:24:01

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@calibur 

Intentionally excluded. Most forms of Buddhism is more what I would call philosophy than religion and in fact many of there ideas, given proper explanation, could be scientifically justified (meditation as the obvious example). Some western Buddhists have bastardized it and made Buddha into some kind of deity, but most denominations are "atheistic religions".

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#8 2012-08-30 03:18:53

          United States    calibur
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@SgtPeppers 

Very good, although I would like to point out that you either forgot or intentionally excluded Bhuddism.

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#9 2012-08-30 02:59:06

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@Hephaestus 

I just want to clarify here. My initial point, which you quoted, was referring to the fading of religion in the WESTERN world. This is a clear shift that you can see if you look at the numbers, but it only refers (at this point) to Western Europe, Canada, (several other commonwealth nations) and the United States (as well as some other highly modernized nations, like Japan, though they have what must be described as a nearly unique situation, as they have never had true monotheism or true polytheism or any strict form of theistic belief in terms of deities). The rest of the world is highly religious, but I would point out that as support diminishes in the west, proselytizing elsewhere becomes harder and without religious resistance, we can begin the modernization (or simply anti-poverty) campaign that will see a real reduction. Islam, I suspect, will be the last bastion of pure theism, as christianity is already weaker than its ever been, Hinduism is inclusive enough that a mass transition is possible and no other belief has the numbers to sustain itself.

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#10 2012-08-29 12:52:35

          United States    maps12
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@Hephaestus 

Have you not seen the Turkish, the Iranians (before the revolution ), the Egyptians, Algerians, Tunisians, Libyans, etc.  All of the Muslims countries had individuals that wanted to secularize and modernize and it happened.  But now the Muslims must feel back against the corner, so they turn to more religious views.

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#11 2012-08-29 09:05:39

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@maps12 

Secularism? In Islam? Really? My whole entire life I have been taught that secularism does NOT happen in Islam, because secularism, to them, basically means saying "We do not need God to solve our problems". And maybe it does mean that. Really, the first thing Muhammad did when he set foot on Medina was build a mosque. In Islam, God and his words is the guide to doing anything, any goddamned thing, and we must not put him aside (something that confuses me since Indonesia isn't a "Muslim nation" yet they insist that God musn't be put aside). Secularism in Islam, when?

Do we need religion? Yes, in my opinion, we do, at least, now we do. For many, many people the only reason they haven't turned their life to shit is religion, that is undoubtedly true (that, of course, does not mean religion is true). So yes, as calibur has stated, religion gives us hope, and unlike what people like chankya say, it does lead lives considerably well; only that it has a few controversially primitive rules in it, such as homophobia and sexism.

But I don't think that alone will keep it alive, science may prove religion wrong ("may"- since this is not a debate about whether science has done that), and if it does, religion's credibility will go down. It might make people lose faith. But in the end, I still do not think that would shatter the strong faith most religious families have, and had taught their children since birth.

Last edited by Hephaestus (2012-08-29 09:13:40)

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#12 2012-08-29 03:58:09

          United States    calibur
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@maps12 

1: after their dark age? They are still in the dark age started in  the 13th century.
2: why does the world need religion? Hope is the only benefit of religion, and we can replace that with hopes for ourselves and others.

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#13 2012-08-28 22:07:44

          United States    maps12
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Re: The Fading of Religion




@Hephaestus 

This secularism from traditional has already happened in Islam, now Islam is going through an extremist phase after their dark age, but religions will not fade, because we need religion.

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#14 2012-08-28 09:49:55

          Indonesia    Hephaestus
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The Fading of Religion




This is something that has been intriguing me since Sgt. Peppers brought it up, quite some time ago, in the "Islam a terrorist religion?" debate. This is what he said:

"Most religions go through these 3 stages

1. Establishment- here the religion is young and usually pacifist, mostly due to the fact it lacks the numbers to do otherwise- ex. Mormonism, Scientology

2. Extremism- here the religion is at a phase where it sees itself as the only truth and sees it as its duty to destroy other faiths. Christianity reached this phase during the crusades and didn't truly leave it until the reformation, counter reformation and the Inquisition.
Islam is at this phase and will likely move on to the next one within this century (at least in some areas)

3. Secularism- the religion becomes accepting of other faiths and violence becomes a rare occurrence. Most of the major religions are at or near this stage and it is here when a religion declines and eventually is overtaken, though I would speculate that this time, unlike the past times when this cycle has occurred (the rise of christianity in rome, for example) no new religion will replace it and instead atheism and agnosticism will become the predominant positions (this is supported by stats across the Western world, where many countries are almost universally atheist and even the ones that aren't have the religious faith mostly centred in the above 30 demographic, implying that once the older generations staryt to vanish, religion will go with them)"

I thought that this would be a good topic for a debate, since the people here are from all over the world, with many kinds of beliefs. While I agree with almost everything in this statement, the only thing I am not convinced of is that "once the older generations staryt to vanish, religion will go with them". I have been raised a Muslim, and living in Indonesia where the more than 80% of the population are Muslims I do not see how, in any way, no matter how much time it takes, religion will vanish and will just be forgotten myths. Because religion, especially the major religions, is very, very strong. Religion is beautiful. I was taught that the world we live in is fair, full of goodness and with patience, we will become successful in it, and in the afterlife. Experience though, has taught me that the world is cruel, unfair, and delusional, and does not give a shit about you, and if you want to succeed, you have to work your ass off to get it.

So it's always nice to think that the world is beautiful and judged by a fair God, I suppose. Most do not even try to seek truth, and all just accept the idea of the world they were taught (something we are all against, I believe). The point is that religion is very, very powerful, and people's faith in it is utterly incredible. It will be handed down, hammered into children's heads for generation after generation, and I do not see how this strong faith will just fade. The older generation will always teach their child religion, and their child, having had that religion his/her whole life, will carry that down as well, with strong faith in it. So how will it vanish? Will it vanish at all?

What do you think?

(edit) What's wrong with the picture? It was supposed to show symbols of religion. Oh well.

Last edited by Hephaestus (2012-08-28 09:57:48)

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