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  • Index
  • » Religion - Room 1
  • » Deism or Theism by SgtPeppers
  •    A question for those of you who believe in a god.

    This question requires some background

    A Deist refers to someone who believes God triggered the beginning of the universe (possibly through the Big bang)and has not interfered in any event since (meaning no prayer, no ritual or anything like that is of any concern to him).

    A theist is someone who believes n a "personal god", who interferes in human affairs, answers prayers, etc.


    So which one are you? Which one makes more sense? Why?

    Edit

#1 2012-12-11 04:45:50

          United States    calibur
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Re: Deism or Theism




@lisajackusd 

...That's an exact quote from me. Are you agreeing, calling it stupid, or what?

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#2 2012-12-11 03:23:01

          Germany    lisajackusd
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Re: Deism or Theism




I can present no scientific proof of this, but, using similar logic to that which brought me to atheism, I have come to the conclusion that time does not exist.



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#3 2012-07-12 08:03:54

          Poland    HighFive5
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Re: Deism or Theism




I`m theist, but I would gently make my own children a deists, because religion is to correct someone`s morality, teach what`s good and what`s bad.
Religion is mostly taboo`s subject, because we propably never prove the God`s existence.

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#4 2012-07-12 07:22:42

          United States    calibur
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 
                       
Thank you, and now you understand what I mean, so it's all alright.
Yeah, I know the idea of the fourth dimension. I don't understand how one can mathematically get the idea that time is an entire dimension...

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#5 2012-07-12 07:00:43

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@calibur 

Okay, sorry that was my misunderstanding. Your idea, though compelling, is against all the knowledge we have as to the nature of time. Current indications are that if you were in the 4th dimension, you could look into the third dimension and see everything as it was, is and  will be, all in a line. Imagine seeing a person as they were, for every second of their entire life, all at the same time and you get the idea.

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#6 2012-07-12 06:44:58

          United States    calibur
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 
                       
For some reason, it's pissing me off more that you're saying my idea is in line with physics than it would if you were completely rejecting my idea...

Probably because I don't think you're correctly understanding my idea.
There is no past and no future. There is only the present. When the present moves, the former present is not the past, it's just the former present... it does not exist anymore and cannot exist in any dimension.
This is hard to explain, especially not having taken high-school physics...
Sorry...

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#7 2012-07-12 06:32:09

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@calibur 

No, the forth dimension is the entire extent of 3rd dimension time in physical form, which is not dissimilar to your idea of movement

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#8 2012-07-12 06:27:31

          United States    calibur
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

Alright then, that makes as much sense as anything else in physics...


I am saying that time does not exist in any actual form of anything related to physics, and you are saying "yes, that's the fourth dimension"
I am probably wrong, all science would suggest so. But, I used the same simple logic we use to crush gods to come to this conclusion.

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#9 2012-07-12 06:20:51

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@calibur 

"Apply the same line of questioning to those other dimensions"

I really wish I could, but the problem is that in higher dimensions, the laws of logic tend to fall apart, so what is true there might not be true here and vice versa

Time does exist tin the sense you describe it, that is what we call the 4th dimension.

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#10 2012-07-12 01:31:49

          United States    calibur
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

All my knowledge of physics comes from watching the science channel often. I am actually... young, yet to take high school physics.

1: I'm not really sure how to respond to this
2: I knew you would bring up the spontaneous subatomic particles in a vacuum. You yourself said that they likely come from other dimensions. Apply the same line of questioning to those other dimensions
EDIT- Blargh, I forgot to put my entire argument. I would say that, due to the ideas that particles are a wave and that nothing is definite until measured, and, I believe this derives from that, but, that a particle can exist in two places at once... these all lead me to the thought that spontaneous generation is a... lie? Misunderstanding? hogwash?

4: You don't seem to understand the degree to which I do not believe in time. The way I see it, time is just a religion-like crutch used because we can't understand that there is no actual passage of time, only movement. Nonreversible, nonadvancible, movement.

Last edited by calibur (2012-07-12 02:20:36)

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#11 2012-07-12 00:18:46

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@calibur 

 

 3rd, The beginning of the universe.
When you think about it, there are only three possible forms of beginnings to the universe.
1: It was always here, back in time to infinity.
Impossible, there is no infinity
2: There was a beginning, with nothing before it
Something cannot come of nothing
3:There was a beginning, with something before it
Ponder its beginning with the same line of questioning.
Our universe defies logic.

Fourth, time.
I can present no scientific proof of this, but, using similar logic to that which brought me to atheism, I have come to the conclusion that time does not exist. 

 

Okay, now to address your later points

The first answer presents a slight problem for me to explain, because I haven't debated you long enough to know what kind of prerequisite knowledge you have in terms of physics, but' I'll try to make myself as clear as possible (note: a lot of the stuff I'm going to say is counter intuitive, but it does have an actual basis in modern physics and note: this is not my field of study and atgough I do know more than most people can understand, I might not be able to answer all questions that might come up)

1. It was always here- this one is actually possible, due to the fact that time (as we understand it) did not start until the big bang. Ergo no beginning is required and any argument on it always existing won't go anywhere beyond semantics, because we just don't know enough yet

2. Again, logically sound, but contradicted by physics. You see (and I am going to do a really bad job of explaining this) in physics terms, "Nothing" (if i put it in quotes, i am referring to the physical manifestation of nothing) is not stable. Take for example a vacuum, utterly devoid of matter. It is unstable because it is trying to be filled in with matter and since we know that subatomic particles can pop in and out of existence (likely through higher dimensions) it is entirely possible that something can indeed come from nothing? (I would recommend reading A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss, he explains this an you can probably find a free PDF online)

3. I think the answers from the last 2 apply here as well

As for time. You are actually right, it is essentially an illusion of the third dimension and if the 11 dimensions proposal is accurate (which I think likely) then time is simply a static line in a higher dimension.

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#12 2012-07-12 00:01:13

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@calibur 

Sorry, I tend to do one thing at a time, then go back and edit posts because it is a pain to keep going back to the previous page to read what the original comment was. I'll address your other points later.

As for contempt, I don't see where that impression came from. I have the utmost respect for the people on this site who can ask informed questions and if I come off as short, sarcastic or contemptuous, I'm sorry but thats just the way I write and I prefer to put the effort into the substance of my responses rather than worrying about my tone. Sorry if you felt I was being contemptuous, but I assure you that wasn't my intent.

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#13 2012-07-11 23:38:54

          United States    calibur
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Re: Deism or Theism




Yeah, I couldn't remember.

As I have said elsewhere, I am an atheist. That is how a christian would break the riddle, and I actually wanted you to refute it. Thank you.

I do not appreciate your contempt of me, nor the fact that you did not even acknowledge my other statements...

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#14 2012-07-11 23:24:28

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@calibur 

First, that is Epicures' riddle, there is no such thing as the "Aedipus paradox".

Congrats on explaining absolutely nothing. If god gave freewill, then the entire christian philosophy crumbles into dust. The entire premise involves a divine plan, it requires that Jesus be born and that certain conditions be met for the end times. This is, by its very nature, determinist (I should say that I am somewhere between determinism and very conservative compatibilism in term of the free will, so I am simply accepting the premise that freewill exists for the sake of argument, however I will point out that this is at the least a major assumption and at most a certifiably false premise, so your argument has no merit unless you can demonstrate freewill, which has never been done) and thus incompatible with freewill. This is for a simple reason. A single human can, with a single action, change the entire course of history. Suppose someone using their freewill had decided to stab one of Jesus' ancestors before they ever had a child. then Jesus would never have been born and the entire course of history would have changed. This means that god must have taken steps to ensure that such an event would never happen. That makes god able and willing to prevent evil and yet he doesn't. This is further supported by the numerous (possibly countless) times that god violates freewill. In exodus, when the 10 plauges were occurring, it outright states that god "hardened pharaohs heart" so that the lesson could continue. That is outright violation of freewill and if god can do it to ensure that more people die, he becomes responsible for what people do with their freewill. That is the point Epicurus was making and that is why you need to consider the whole riddle, because he covers the only 3 possibilities that exist f a god does, he is, by definition either malevolent, impotent or unworthy to be called a god.

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#15 2012-07-11 18:51:09

          United States    calibur
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Re: Deism or Theism




Alright, I'll start off with the Aedipus paradox

It can be broken, by christian logic, in the 3rd part.
If he is able, and not willing, then why is there evil?
Christians would answer "because he gives people the right to make their own decisions"
SgtPepper, I await your infallible logic.

PatrickDUp, according to your own statement, you are no christian.
" I am definately a Deist kind of religious person."

A Deist refers to someone who believes God triggered the beginning of the universe (possibly through the Big bang)and has not interfered in any event since (meaning no prayer, no ritual or anything like that is of any concern to him).

That would mean no moses, no christ, and no abraham ever were blessed by god. Nothing of the sort. Which is directly contrary to christian doctrine.


3rd, The beginning of the universe.
When you think about it, there are only three possible forms of beginnings to the universe.
1: It was always here, back in time to infinity.
Impossible, there is no infinity
2: There was a beginning, with nothing before it
Something cannot come of nothing
3:There was a beginning, with something before it
Ponder its beginning with the same line of questioning.

Our universe defies logic.


Fourth, time.
I can present no scientific proof of this, but, using similar logic to that which brought me to atheism, I have come to the conclusion that time does not exist.

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#16 2011-12-03 02:53:50

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@daredsox66 

Your assertion counts for nothing, why on earth should I believe your myths over Indian tales of lord Krishna, or Muslim tales of Allah. It is utterly irrational to accept your god when there have been tens of thousands of gods created which are also unsubstantiated. Many of those gods are not cruel, sadomasochistic, unforgiving, misogynistic, homophobic, infanticidal, genocidal, control freaks, your god is all that and more. Jesus, if you have actually read the new testament, is himself a racist, he refers to gentiles (non-jews) as dogs. All that love thy neighbour stuff, well it turns out, in context it means jewish neighbours. Even thou shalt not kill, in the old testament, is only applied to the killing of another Jew.

As for "free will", I would dispute its very existence, but that is an argument for another time. Instead let me examine your logic:

1. God gives men free will

2. God punishes those who disobey him

3. Disobeying god is the only exercise of said free will (must be inferred, based on the fact that people , if threatened with punishment, make no real choice if they obey)

4. Ergo, god punishes you for utilizing the very free will he specifically gave you

The whole idea of wanting to depend on god is, at its most basic, an attempt to remain like a child, never responsible, always watched, a god of the type you describe is a kind of babysitter, looking after those unable to take responsibility for their own lives.

One last thing, it says "man was made in gods image", not his vision, but if we resemble god, why are we not invisible (I am only half joking)?

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#17 2011-12-03 01:15:12

          United States    daredsox66
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

It is also said that man was made in God's vision, and within this vision he gave humans free will to love him or to not love him. So when He doesnt stop a certain thing from happening its because he wants that person(s) to turn and depend on him.

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#18 2011-12-01 13:52:40

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

Well if you did in fact concede it, then you are one of a select few, as people usually try to distance their religion from the people who killed in the name of it. How else do you think the Hitler is an atheist lie got started.

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#19 2011-12-01 04:06:35

          Australia    PatrickDup
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Re: Deism or Theism




@SgtPeppers 

I beleive I said something along those lines a few posts ago mate. Look it up.

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#20 2011-11-30 14:07:04

          Canada    SgtPeppers
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Re: Deism or Theism




@PatrickDup 

Again, you ignore everything I say in favour of straw men. I would not say that priests tell you to kill, I will say the bible does quite clearly  order it of you. you have not explained how "we people" have caused death, you have not given us any thing to admit to. Also you cannot say you have done bad things in the past until you admit that these things were done by christians in accordance with the bibles teachings, if you concede that, then we have a point of agreement.

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