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  • Index
  • » Religion - Room 1
  • » Why People Believe by SgtPeppers
  •    Why do rational people believe religions

    Whatever questions religion poses, the one which is hardest to answer is why people who are otherwise completely rational lose their minds over their unproven ideas.

    This is not an argument over the validity of a religion, simply a question as to why it has the effect it has.

    Edit

#1 2017-04-14 13:26:36

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Why People Believe




@Rattanak 

Well said!

But why do some people ask to one god for all matters while others have one for crops and one for trading and so on?

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#2 2015-12-22 11:21:47

          Cambodia    Rattanak
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Re: Why People Believe




People believe in religion because they want to have a support to make them win from many obstacles in the Earth.

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#3 2014-12-12 15:48:47

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Why People Believe




@Rounaq 

Agreed. Blind belief in authority is the archenemy of truth.

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#4 2014-12-06 07:27:54

          India    Rounaq
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Re: Why People Believe




Believing in religion is completely irrational,as far I know that it has been written in a time when people didn't knew that earth orbited the sun!Believe should be based on empirical evidence and clear view,blind believe in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.:hum:

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#5 2014-10-19 09:43:30

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Why People Believe




@Debater345 

Also, if, according to your statement, there was an infinitely large force pushing all things apart, bosons wouldn't form quarks in the first place, so how could planets come to be?

You need to slow your hands down & speed up your brain.

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#6 2014-10-19 08:48:10

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Why People Believe




@Debater345 
                       
Hmm....you have a point that lizards become more vulnerable in their transition to birds, which may be good reason that present reconstruction depicts them living on trees. lol2

Take Archeopteryx for example. Research shows that the claws on its wings are similar in structure to the feet claws of bats, which suggest grasping. Combined with remains found in the same sediment layer, it can be derived Archeopteryx leads a tree bound lifestyle.

And as time is not enough, relics of their dinosaur heritage could still be found in birds, namely their skeleton. Most promiently, the pelvis of birds has barely changed since 65 million years ago, which brings us to your next problem, the void validity of the Bible in consideration to the age of Earth.

The age of the Earth is not only 6000 years old, current calculations based on radioactive materials found in meteorites show around 4.6 BILLION, but the Bible has no proof of its 6000 years, does it?

Just for your information, the theory of evolution is evolving like every thing alive. The part that remains unchanged is the mechanism which Darwin proposed: natural selection, as it has been proved right over and over by geologists, geographists, anthropologists, chemists and of course biologists. As for the Big Bang theory, the whole cosmophysics field is either altering or challenging the BB theory.

Finally, the global population cannot respawn from only 8 people without genetics showing that, ESPECIALLY (if I'm right) WHEN THEY ARE ALL PART OF NOAH'S FAMILLY.

Again for your information, many civilisations have records of the great flood which engulfed the world at the end of the last ice age, so the world population was much more than 8 after the event. Said civilisations include Mesoamerican(there were a lot), Israelites (of course), Chinese (that's a must) and you can look up the rest.

lol2

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#7 2014-10-19 07:27:32

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Why People Believe




@Debater345 

When I say resemblance, I mean a near identical lifetime, which you so nicely summed up for me. But what I do not agree with is all the "son of God", 
"messiah", "king from above" business, which forms aforedescribed character's divinity.

Next, the evolution business. I believe the entire debate has gone into the the path of "Why people believe in religion", which I think was the creator's intention. But when you put a stance that "religion and science are both beliefs and what applies to religion applies to science also" you have to be very careful, as you have just been not.

Science believes in things that could be described flawlessly, mathematically, and neutrally correct. For example, whatever religion you believe in, E still equals m times (c square), evolution started since life appeared, and the universe still started from a scientifically explainable something. You may not know, but when I realized that the Big Bang theory goes against the conservative law of energy I believe it to be flawed and if you notice my last post I agreed with it only to the point of matter came from no matter. Nevertheless, I am sure a theory which does not go against the conservative law of energy will be found.

But now comes the problem. Religion is based on the human heart, not mind, and can be effectively described as a system of values . Which means that unlike science, a religion can go corrupt.

For example, even if Newton did not discover the laws of gravity, the laws will still be in place until some one discovers them. Scientific laws stand the test of time while religious morals adapt to contemporary situations

If you compare religions, you can see that in their respective views, right and wrong differ. This is why your statement on Darwin is void. You misstepped one of the many lines between the common area of science and religion.

On your quoting me(thank you very much:-)), I would like to clarify that (I think I did) I meant RELIGIOUS PERSONNEL are (catepillar...), because all their talking of afterlife is done IN THEIR LIVES. Which is why I use a catepillar to describe the situation, how can they truly understand afterlife in THIS LIFE?

And ahem, the prophecy is, thank you very much, NOT a religious source. Who told you prophecies have to be religious? It may often be the case in the West, but in China with have at least 6 different and not religious prophecies ALL CORRECT UP TO NOW.

Finally, on your point an infinite universe needs infinite energy, I need only state one point: Do you know what is a void? What is literally NOTHING? lol2

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#8 2014-10-17 23:02:22

          United States    Debater345
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Re: Why People Believe




@Archduke 

First off , you say it is but a resemblance but yet if you read the writings of Josephus like I suggested they had the same name . Jesus was a rare name in those times . In addition to the having the same name they both died the same way , lived in the same area of the world , went to the same places at the same times , born and died at the same time , killed by the same people , and both healed people who were beyond the help of modern medicine at the time . You seem to be a smart person , the odds that they are the same person is more likely than not . Also , you say the validity of a religion depends on what the current believers do and say . By that logic I could say evolution is false SOLELY because Charles Darwin lived around 150 years ago . Before you bring up the issue that science is not a religion , that is irrelevant because Charles Darwin was a past practitioner in science . Also , you say religion is "as credible as a caterpillar on the topic of flying " yet you quote a Chinese religious source in the same comment . In addition , the universe is infinite , the big bang theory created the universe according to the big bang theory . This is illogical when you consider in order for the universe to be infinite the explosion would have required infinite energy . If that was to happen the planets would have never settled into a stable condition and form gravity . It is more logical that the planets were created in their place to begin with , which is what Christianity states . There is some pretty good evidence .

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#9 2014-10-17 09:35:29

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Why People Believe




@Debater345 

  So what you're saying is, if a religion has a "between man and god" of historical resemblance and the resembled figure was recorded by historians of cultures who wished the figure dead, the religion itself becomes more credible.
  Which I disagree, because first of all it is but a resemblance; next, whether a religion is credible or not depends upon, mostly, on the actions of its current practitioners which means in the sense of afterlife and God(presuming at least one exists, as this is a debate in the religion category after all), any religion is as credible as a catepillar is on the topic of flying.
  And on your 

 Christianity has more proof behind it that any other form of creationism 

  This is what the Bible said 
 

 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth 

 
  Give me a way to prove that.
  But instead, In the 乾坤萬年歌, it said
 

 太极未判昏已过 

 
  This coincides with the part of the BB theory: matter came from no matter.
  So again, prove it.

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#10 2014-10-16 23:00:19

          United States    Debater345
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Re: Why People Believe




@Archduke 

Okay , sorry about that . My comment was worded ambiguously . About the issue of Jesus living I suggest you read the writings of Josephus . Josephus was a Jewish historian , and the Jews killed Jesus because he was against their beliefs . If Jesus didn't exist why would he write about him. The case is same for many other historians from cultures that wanted him dead . And about the topic of conservation issue , well the original question was , "why do rational people believe in religion ? ". I believe what I said qualifies as a reason for believing . Also , about the creationism , Christianity , big bang thing you brought up based on scientific evidence Christianity has more proof behind it that any other form of creationism so that is why I named Christianity specifically instead of being ambiguous and saying creationism in general .

Last edited by Debater345 (2014-10-16 23:03:51)

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#11 2014-10-16 11:55:55

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Why People Believe




@Debater345 

 

 There is more proof supporting Christianity than the big bang theory.  

 

What connection is there? Creationism is comparable to the big bang theory, but a religion?

 

 Jesus did live , that is an indisputable fact  

 

I would not say so myself. There are barely any records of Jesus in any official Roman records. The fact that a book written by the successors of his disciples and the successors of successors of his disciples and the successors of the succesors of successors of his disciples......says he existed doesn't count, presuming there is a figure with compareable resemblance deitified.

But I believe Jesus to be something more like a shaman or 'one who works miracles'.

P.S This has nothing to do with topic. Please create another debate or place a request in the 'Miscellaneous' thread on whether Jesus existed or not, though I believe there already is one. geek

Last edited by Archduke (2014-10-16 12:01:55)

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#12 2014-10-14 16:55:38

          United States    Debater345
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Re: Why People Believe




There is more proof supporting Christianity than the big bang theory. For example , Jesus did live , that is an indisputable fact . Many historians from cultures that would not write about if he didn't exist wrote about him . So he was one if three things , a liar , a lunatic , or Lord . If he was a liar or lunatic when he died and the disciples took his body they would have know Christianity was false , so why then did they sacrifice themselves for a false religion . People die for lies everyday , but not when they know it's a lie . All of the disciples died cruel deaths for preaching Christianity , don't you think they would've said "okay Christianity is false don't kill me " if Jesus wasn't Lord and they knew it . Also if Jesus was a liar or lunatic it would have been 11 malnourished men versus two armored soldiers from the most successful military ever , who knew they would die if Jesus's bondy disappeared and the disciples won . Think about how unlikely that is

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#13 2014-08-30 07:50:17

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke2
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Re: Why People Believe




@madd693 

  

  IOW, the irrational part isn't in believing, it's in rejecting the possibility. 

 

It's equally irrational to believe what you cannot prove and reject what you cannot disprove.

 There are approximately 2,500 prophesies in the Bible. 2000 of them have already been fulfilled. Exactly. Without error. Many generations, and in some cases centuries, after the prophesy was written. That's pretty powerful reason to believe what the book has to say. 

 

Allow me to say firsthand just because a book dictating a religion contains fulfiled prophecies does not make THE RELIGION ITSELF more believable.

And the bible isn't the only place containing fulfiled prophecies.

I will generously give examples, even if you may not understand.

The 乾坤万年歌:
Excerpts--- 

 太极未判昏已过 

 

This is about the creation of the universe, which basically means, "though things aren't how they are now, chaos is over". This prophesy-song starts from the beginning of the universe.

--- 

 而今天下一统周 礼乐文章八百秋 

 
The (supposed) author is Jiang Shang(I should have mentioned him) is alive at the beginning of the 周(Zhou) dynasty, but he predicted it would end in around 800 years and have a advanced civilisation.

The Zhou dynasty ended in 856 years and did have a advanced civilisation. The most advanced of its era, I can say without doubt.

--- 

 一枝流落去西川 三分社稷传两代 

 
This is about Liu Bei. He is a descendant of the imperial family, and Jiang Shang predicted he will go to 西川(Xichuan)a.k.a modern Sichuan, the lands of the Han dynasty will be divided into three parts(which it did: Wei, Shu, Wu) and the Han dynasty will continue for two more generations (which it did: Liu Bei and his son.)

--- 

 人丁口取江南地 京国重新又一迁 

 
This predicts a man named Jieshi will take lands south of the Yangtze, which happened (Chiang Kai-Shek, a.k.a Jiang Jieshi holds Nanking as capital of the KMT government at first) and the capital will move again afterwards (KMT moves to Taipei, CCP to Peking)

The last line is the second-last confirmed line of the prophesong.

I am Archduke, mortal and alive.

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#14 2014-08-30 06:48:18

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke2
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Re: Why People Believe




@PatrickDup 

 

 The part about a God causing the Big Bang however, is logical. 

 

A ballon bursting during fill-up because God caused it is equally logical then. But it's just because it was stuufed with too much gas(or somebody popped it). Oh no wait. A mortal somebody.

I am Archduke, mortal and alive.

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#15 2014-08-30 06:41:25

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke2
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Re: Why People Believe




@PatrickDup 

 

 These were the obvious advantages in prayer and beleif and the way it could help people persevere in harsh situations and also the obvious gaps in scientific knowledge, which while science had great theories and had prooved many things, there were still things that it could not explain and therefore that religion could offer ideas for. 

 

For the first part, thank you! I am relieved to find my point supported, albeit this far back in time. People, rational or not, believe because they are WEAK. Persevere in harsh situations....do you know snakes can go on without food for a season alive and well? Most human suffering is imcompareable to the harshness of Mother Nature.

But religion-offered ideas cannot replace scientific, logical reasoning and hard work.

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#16 2014-08-30 06:29:35

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke2
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Re: Why People Believe




 

 but their contributions are not likely to equal Carl Sagan, Stephan Hawking or Richard Dawkins. 

 

Who is Richard Dawkins?

 

 since they were raised in a world where no alternative to biblical teachings existed. 

 

As I must have mentioned somewhere, for I am Archduke, arrogance, (*) western arrogance AGAIN! Near, there was the Quoran (though it wasn't that different); in the middle there was Hinduism (not so different) and Buddism (difference?); far, there was Chinese yingyang theory and Central American/Native American creation stories. And right under Europe was the Chaos theory of the Greeks.

I am Archduke.

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#17 2014-08-30 06:12:44

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke2
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Re: Why People Believe




@PatrickDup 

 

 'HYPOCRITES' you atheists in this debate are 

 

喂,别一竿子打翻一船人。

But undenialbly religion motivates extremism more than atheism. And defending those activities, like persecution of unbelievers, certainly makes more religious people hypocrites.

 

 They cant be that bad if they tolerate your remarks about us.
 

 

They can, if there are enough atheists balancing their power.

So why the hell do you believe in a God?

I am Archduke.

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#18 2014-08-30 06:01:55

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke2
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Re: Why People Believe




@PatrickDup 

 

  For the violence part I would point you to Stalin and Lenin and the Soviet Secret Polices killings of millions of Tsarist Russian civillians, and later Soviet Russian and Soviet civillians in the millions. I make this point because as you would know, being an atheist, the Bolsheviks/Communists were also atheists.  

 

Pal, consider Marxism as a religion and then compare it with the Inquisition.

 

 As for you lot being smarter, well. I consider myself a very smart person if I may say so. 

 

I know I'm not your target, but well, I think I'm pretty smart too. But forgetful. Haha.

 

 I am excellent at all things historical, geographical, lingual as I know English, Greek, German, Italian and some Basque, and all things military including military technology military history military tactics and strategy, from modern era and right back to around 2000 BC I think. 

 

Wow. You really should study Chinese---language, history, etc. For example(don't look it up) who were the five great warlords of the Zhou dynasty?

 

 Practically everyone on this website who I have had the pleasure of debating with I would consider smart or intelligent. 

 

Thank you.

 

 But I must say that I am probably the smartest person I know of on this website. 

 

Bless you. But I don't think hardworking students make up much of religious people, though you could certainly be considered one.

I am Archduke.

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#19 2014-08-30 05:41:29

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke2
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Re: Why People Believe




@hayyantalab 

Hullo to you too! I'm even newer than you, but I guess if you do, I do have the right to say welcome back, eh?

 

  I think religions are no more than political movements. moreover, a tool to mobilize the masses. 

Yes, but for good or for bad? Marx said "religion is opium of the masses" so I think this slots a piece in the puzzle called What Is Religion---spiritual comfort.

In Taiwan, there is a Buddist order/charity called Ciji which is in most cases the quickest reacter in face of disaster. So this "tool to mobilize the masses" has its massive benefits.

 

 religion is losing battles against science all around the globe.. and it will be gone in no time 

 

So long as people feel unsure about their future, so long as they feel powerless at things beyond their control, religion will have a Granada.

I am Archduke.

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#20 2014-08-07 06:13:21

          Taiwan (ROC)    Archduke
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Re: Why People Believe




And belief is hardly related to rationallity. nono

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